[Dreamer77]

I have been working with that emulsifier for quite some time and I understand what you’re describing. The best solution I have found so far is to combine it with polyquaternium to provide better slide and final skin feel. Also, best thickener to combine it with I find that is cetyl alcohol.

[Dreamer77]

PhilGeis said:

Dreamer - where do you access relevant clinical trial data for peptides?

I get them by searching over the internet on various sites, from various pubblications, by reading various patents and from the manufacturing companies themselves. 

1Armand2 said:

Can you share with us your ingredients please so that we can analyze!  Thanks

Silvia said:

Dreamer77 said:

I have solved the problem already, formulated it twice since last post and accelerated the stability issue by heating it up in temperature over 50C with no colouration whatsoever.

 When I say highend actives its not what marketers say for them but what I believe according to my experience is really high end.

In the formula I have excluded ie Argireline and all known Botox like effect peptides but I include a couple of peptides from its creator, he has created a new company after he sold Lipotec to investors.

I have a vast arsenal of actives already and quite a few formulas for various applications for both cosmetic and otc field, all tested with 100% success. If you’re interested send me a message and we’ll talk, I have already loads of results and I plan to set this formula on clinical trial myself as well. Also, there are actives out there that you have no idea they exist, the most expensive one that I have found costs around $15K per KG and it’s not bee venom or such.

Thanx everyone for the input, you helped me clear my mind and move forward.

Hello, very interesting post. After reading your post I have some thoughts about results at photos and the product.

You did a great formula, this is really amazing results, if it works even though only on mimic wrinkles. I noticed that mostly effect is on mimic zones, that is peptides work. I guess those which  acts at SNARE complex. It gives sudden botox like effect but only until you use it. Anyway is good to use such cream to get rid and prevent more wrinkles.
You mentioned that so dramatic change occurs in 10 minutes after application. As far as I know physiologically act in so short time can only hormons, steroids or mediators. So I hope you don’t use epinephrine, steroids as fluticazone or others. 
So if these amazing  effects would occured after 2 or 4 weeks daily application it would be more convincable to me about the long lasting effectivness of formula. 
But still the results are impressive! Make a brand name!

Hey thanx for the comment. The only time I have used hormones such as epinephrine it was upon request of the client. It was about a custom anesthetic ointment to be used as a strong anestetic for topical application for the face area (lips eyebrows) as the client is a tattoo artist and requested of a fast acting, anesthetic product and specifically wanted epinephrine to be used in the formula. I do not use steroids or drugs on any of my formulas. I just envision the result I want to bring and study the actives that I want to use. I use actives that have similar properties and that are being produced by different manufacturers. I also use various penetration enhancers (depending on the formula) like ethoxydiglycol, dimethyl isosorbide, msm, dmso (not for cosmetics) and very rarely essential oils.

Upon first application a strong muscle relaxation occurs which is being followed by a noticable wrinkle reduction (it usually starts upon 1st  application and the results keep going on even 2hrs after). By using the one single peptide that is causing this, on clinical trials the manufacturer reduced wrinkles up to 25% in 4 weeks of use. This is veey good but not enough for me as I am trying to max it out, 25% is my starting point,  then included a vast arsenal of other peptides that were clinically proven to work,  that work on long term in conjuction with oligoelements, ceramides, minerals, aminoacids and vitamins that nourish the skin and bring better protection/regeneration etc. For preservative I use Spectrastat (top notch preservative that does not cause eye irritation, works also as a chelant thus eliminating the need to use EDTA or such, and has moisturising properties as well). I also use humectants like glycerine, Pentavitin and actives that are extracts in glycerine paired to humectants with no sticky properties. I also use Sodium Hyaluronate in powder form that dissolves in water and works as a long term filler along with particles that contain botox like peptide and precious metals.

Finally and most importantly of all, the base of the emulsion consists of a mix of cetearyl alcohol cetyl alcohol stearic acid combined with non ionic emulsifier, cationic thickener and non ionic gelifier. I use cupuacu butter, murumuru butter, jojoba esters, retinoid like oils and mastic tree oil extracts. I do not use any Dimethicone ( even though it enhances aesthetics of the formula skin feel and speading). By using the oils and butters above I have managed to create a skin similar/identical structure as the mix contains stearic/palmitic/behenic/lignorenic/oleic acids that are structural components of our skin.  Finally in order to mask the odours and give a pleasant smell I use a perfume with odour masking capabilities. As you may already understand this is an expensive formula to produce on large scale so I have not left anything in chance.

The result is the following….the user gets impressed by the initial strong and fast wrinkle reduction which leads to a more rested youthful appearance with higher luminosity on the face…this luminosity is further increased with use of the product as it contains Taurine and retinoid like oils ( without the limitations of retinol). Moreover the use of dry butters helps reinforcing the skin barrier witout causing oilyness and glow. The humectants attract moisture from the environment and lock it on the external layer of the skin. The minerals help oxygenation of the skin and aid to the healthier metabolism of the skin.

The end result is a happy face that is constantly nourished and hydrated, protected by all external factors that lead to aging (heat cold smoke uv radiation pollution). And a user that is somehow addicted by the use of the product as it is very hard to achieve similar results with any other formulation out there. The feeling of hydration is such that is second to none, numerous clients have reported of feeling extreme hydration that lasts well over 24 hrs with a single application and even though their skin gets washed in the meantime. 

To give you a hint of the ingredients included, most of them have been awarded various prizes in beauty contests and shows from 2005 and on. Most of them cost between $300-600 per kg and a few cost well over $1500 per kg. The formula was created to become the queen of the formulas in any market and replace the use of day/night face moisturiser in conjuction with a serum. 

I have also developed an eye gel like serum emulsion that works immediately on wrinkles, bags, circles, eyebrows, crows feet and also as a filler for topical application. 

I was planning to throw the face moisturiser in the European market this September but some other plans I did, exhausted my funds and set me back for a few more months.

[Dreamer77]

MarkBroussard said:

This is like reading the script of the next Borat movie

Out of curiousity, when you say that you do vegan formulas do you actually eat them? If you eat them do you become more beautiful and younger?. Sorry that I am not at your level of expertise, I am just a dreamer with a vision.

[Dreamer77]

Pharma said:

Dreamer77 said:

So, in other words, those companies that actually formulate hyaluronidase-containing solutions for injectable use, for correcting the excessive hyaluronic acid injectable treatment done from plastic surgeons and dermatologists, where are they buying it from since there is no actual producer of the raw material? Do they meditate asking Santa Clause to bring it during the Christmas holidays?

As I mentioned in the beginning: Hylase is available in the strength 150 IE and 300 IE which, at least for plastic surgeons, isn’t enough because they need 1500 IE. And yes, they currently have no other option as to pray to whomever they pray to and hope that their product will soon be back in stock. Why do I know? Because I tried to organise it for the beauty clinic nearby just two weeks ago.

So my contact was right in the first place, he said that this company Proteos Biotech was not able to cover the need of the product, the product was working, it had 3,000 units per ml. They somehow must have a production problem with it and decided to keep it for themselves, like my contact suggested, they must be developing their own line of products with it and with the other actives they got. So where are we now? Bottom line none of you has had any prior and real contact, even at experimental level, with Hyaluronidase, just a theoretical one regarding legislation. Getting a fresh batch of phospholipids from Lucas Meyer today, will create liposomes for my new experimental Hyaluronidase babies

[Dreamer77]

Pharma said:

Dreamer77 said:

…Sigma Aldrich…

These are research chemicals and not to be used in/on humans.

I don’t know in which country you live but AFAIK in most if not all EU/EFTA countries, a product which contains a prescription drug becomes a prescription drug unless you can proof that the product is inactive and safe if topically applied (which falls in the responsibility of the manufacturer) and is in accordance with cosmetic regulations or the amount contained falls within the OTC range (if that exists) and you register it as drug (in which case you’d have to use pharmacopoeia grade).

Given that an enzyme will, even if suspended in perfluorocarbons, degrade quite fast and will not penetrate skin to an effective amount, it actually could be okay*. In my country, it wouldn’t be for several reasons.

Depending on where you live, there are workarounds (though I despise all of these):

- Knowing the right person

- Bribing the right person

- Hiring someone as responsible pharmacist and either see that he doesn’t know or gets enough salary so he doesn’t care and use him as scapegoat in case of

- Living far away enough to not being bothered with inspections

- Pharmacist is a liberal profession = laws and regulations are for pussies

*If you think you can stabilise it and get it to penetrate skin, then you must live in a wonderful country where people can store their vaccines and biologicals at room temperature (not talking about igloos) and don’t have to inject insulin because they can apply it topically.

So, in other words, those companies that actually formulate hyaluronidase-containing solutions for injectable use, for correcting the excessive hyaluronic acid injectable treatment done from plastic surgeons and dermatologists, where are they buying it from since there is no actual producer of the raw material? Do they meditate asking Santa Clause to bring it during the Christmas holidays?

[Dreamer77]

Pharma said:

Abdullah said:

Can i ask which silicone oils?

The product is made by Stratapharma. The label says ‘polysiloxane, siloxane resin’; the former is also known as dimethicone. Obviously, not even the sales rep knows which ones exactly.

I’ve tried it and it feels different than, say, pure 350 cp. My guess is that it also contains a volatile or very low viscosity one besides the liquid ‘base’ silicone alongside the high MW film forming derivative. Its a quite well spreading gel which dries quickly and leaves a film for many hours which is super hard to wash off even with soap.

I’m not saying silicones are the only thing which works (though they work great, especially if not used in emulsion form). The main thing is proper wound care.

You’d be amazed if you read clinical trials of products that are actually way better than silicones on scar treatment. Silicones are just way too cheap to use and they bring ridiculous profits on the companies using them. I am reading pubblished patents when I want to do something new and overcome obstacles. I will say no more as I believe that you can do some research on your own.

[Dreamer77]

Perry said:

@Dreamer77 - I guess what I’m asking is if the ingredient works as well as you’ve described, why hasn’t P&G or L’Oreal or one of those gigantic companies who already have the marketing skills & brands using the technology?  Anyone can buy the ingredient and incorporate it into the formula.

And these big companies have innovation teams dedicated specifically to adapting promising technologies to beauty products.  Why haven’t they?

The only reasons I can think of (maybe you have more) is…

1. They tried it and it didn’t work
2. They tried it and other technologies were better
3. They never tried it - (unlikely since big companies try anything promising)

What am I missing?

Try to buy it from the link you have posted, contact them and see what reply you will get. Seriously don’t you think that I had already passed through that channel before I posted here? 

[Dreamer77]

I don’t really know to be honest.

They had produced it alright, it was produced in Spain up until 2020. It was distributed to the entire world.

In North America a cosmetics company incorporated it into another formula naming it Perfect Eyes along with some other high end actives that are still in circulation. I have already tried all of them separately and all are quite good actually, this one with the Hyaluronidase is the one that I am missing.

The only reason that I can think of is the one that I have stated above, they are keeping it for themselves as they have decided to start their own patented line of high end products. I see no reason of why it shouldn’t work in the end. By the moment they went into “trouble” formulating the final product, registering it for distribution all around the world and advertising it this all sums up to a product that really must be working. The even performed their own clinical trials with impressive results.

Another reason that I could think of why giants like L’Oréal P&G wouldn’t bother is because its something very specialised and it targets only a specific thing, to minimise the eye bags and that’s all about it, it doesn’t have any other particular use. 

[Dreamer77]

Olivoil Avenate is amphifilic emulsifier and does not combine with cationics…just saying

[Dreamer77]

abierose said:

@Dreamer77 thank you for all of that information! I really appreciate it so, I can use a non ionic OR a cationic cellulose or gum..? Just out of curiosity, do you have any suggestions or do you prefer a certain non ionic emulsifier that is similar to the one Gattefosse produces..? Do you make/sell skincare products? What are some of your preferred emulsifiers and emolients..? Thanks!!!

I have used Olivem, Emulium Delta, Emulpharma Coreosome and an couple others that slip my mind at the moment. I  started makig skincare products on demand but as my clientele grew I have decided to proceed into developing formulas for more people. Emulium Delta is very versatile, I also use Olivoil Avenate  and all known thickeners and gelling agents. Among my prefered companies is Lucas Meyer, from them I use Heliogel Lecigel and Heliofeel (but these are anionic emulsifiers and gelling agents)… Generally speaking I use only premium products for my formulations.

[Dreamer77]

I do not know on what percentage they will speed up the absorption of oil, however keep in mind that this depends on the cationic charge, so the more you have the more oil the skin will absorb.

[Dreamer77]

Patsi check your messages.

Perry ,I had the same question myself, apparently the company producing the active containing Hyaluronidase have decided to develop their own line of products. Initially they have had it under official INCI listing and were selling it in the entire planet, I believe that they have decided to keep exclusivity and move on their own towards this end.

Also, the Hyaluronidase serum is simpler to make but more dangerous compared to a skin moisturiser. You see, Hyaluronidase degrades the hyaluronic acid and this means that it can cause skin dryness and sagging if applied in the wrong manner or site,  meanwhile my skin formula has already been tested and it has no side effects even if its being used excessively by certain psychotic clients of mine.

[Dreamer77]

Pattsi said:

Dreamer77 said:

 use it on my own free will, 

What?
Hyaluronidases are labeled in the European Union for the following indications: (1) as adjuvant therapy in subcutaneous drug administration, (2) to increase penetration of a local anesthetic, (3) to promote the reabsorption of contrast medium in urology, and (4) to promote reabsorption of subcutaneous hematomas. Off-label prescriptions are allowed, informed consent of the patient is required, and the related prescriptions (specifying the indication) must be reported in a medical record. In addition, the pharmacist must send a copy of the off-label prescription to the local health office and then to the Public Health Department.

The mistake you are making is that you confuse drugs with cosmetics….here we talk about cosmetics…. If I succeed you will know, you still haven’t replied to my message, my formula is ready and its only a matter of time before I start producing the first large batches of 2,000 jars. Each batch will be doubled up on every turn as the 2,000 jars will be sold in less than a week with advertising. Unofficial In-vivo testing has been done like you have seen already, no side effects,no skin irritation etc. and official clinical evaluation will take place at a university in Italy and everything will be completed by the end of this summer, the anecdotal evidence will become official proof of result, only money for the clinical trials is needed,  then I will invade literally the entire EU market with all social media advertising it, Facebook Instagram and all. The formula was envisioned to have a certain result of usage and it does so with great success, the end result is to humiliate every expensive face moisturiser that costs up to $1000 per jar. I have completed the formula with $0 expense on advertising…go figure what sales are going to be created when I spend $10,000 for a month of advertising and moreover when I do these 1 minute video ads on YouTube…did I mention that it starts working in only 5 minutes? And lastly, the women who use it do not stop doing so, as they know that this kind of result they will not get it from whatever else they try on their skin. The main target group is 40+ with normal to dry skin but it can be used from all skin types 25-90yrs old…beat that if you can with a single product.

[Dreamer77]

abierose said:

@Dreamer77 I’ve been looking at the emulsifier you mentioned (Emuliam Delta) and am definitely intrigued…do you purchase yours directly from the company who makes it (https://www.gattefosse.com/) or is there another repacker or reseller that you get yours through? I’m looking at some of their other products…they have some pretty cool stuff! 

I buy it directly from their representative on the MOQ which is 20KG if I am not mistaken. However, this product and the rest that you see that Gattefosse is producing you cannot find them easily at small retail shops that sell small quantities. Your best bet would be to use maybe another PEG emulsifier that’s easier to get. There are other good emulsifiers and maybe stronger ones (emulium delta is peg75 stearate) with like peg100 stearate etc. The company , Gattefosse ia among the premium companies that do their own research development and production of their products and various actives that are very good. However, if you cannot find easy peg emulsifier for your moisturiser do not panic, all you need is a good non-ionic emulsifier (strictly non ionic) and 1-2 good non-ionic thickeners to pair with it and with the polyquaternium…also you need a non ionic or cationic  type of cellulose/gum so as  to have a much better aspect of the cream that you will create with the polyquaternium….and remember, you need a heavy oil phase to pair to the polyquaternium as it will make the skin absorb the oils like a sponge absorbs liquids….and if the oil phase is too small the skin will initially feel rightly tight but during the hours after application will feel wrong and dehydrated and will give a paper dry sensation…been there already and know exactly what I am typing….

[Dreamer77]

Yes you are absolutely right on that and cannot disagree on that matter with you. BUT It’s going to be used for cosmetic application though through a topical preparation and not as a drug (injectable) which makes it a total different thing in the end. The main difference between injectables and ointments is that in the first case the result is difficult to reverse while with topical application once you stop usage things are being reversed easily. And that’s what Hyaluronidase is being deployed for in the end, to correct the effects provoked by excessive dosage of injectable hyaluronic acid (filler). However, we wil be applying it topically only and to correct accumulation of hyaluronic acid that causes water retention that leads to eye bags. There will be no injectables whatsoever. If we succeed I will pass it to a more professional level and create an official product which will be unique and one of its kind, there’s no similar product found at global level, I have already controlled that as well, if I could be able to find one I would buy it and sell it in my turn.  From your way of writing I presume that you are in the UK. In UK things must be pretty “tight” legislation-wise and experimentation must be a very difficult thing in the end. Over here things are quite different, if you go and do things strictly by the book it won’t get you far, same as in UK I believe, however things are being done by the book but taking shortcuts (windows in legislation) here and there. I forgot to mention that apart from being a pharmacist, I am also a certified technician (by the state) for cosmetics production. In the entire country there are over 2,500 cosmetic labs and relative companies out if which only a dozen operate with GMP and are up to current legislation, so go figure about books, registries, local health authorities and public health administration. However, if you keep low profile like I do and know the right people things are done way easier and legally at the same time. I believe you catch my “drift”….

[Dreamer77]

Ι didn’t say I know everything better, I just know that technology and chemistry have been advancing all the time and new forms of penetration enhancing materials are being discovered and deployed constantly and what you claim of limited penetration actually is not true. If it was true then companies of actives would be out of business since their actives would be difficult to penetrate the skin. I never asked of how to penetrate the skin and deliver a substance to a site so as to exert its biological activity, my original question is about Hyaluronidase and if anyone has had any prior experience with it. Being a prescription drug as you say doesn’t mean anything to me as I can buy whatever I like/need, legally, and use it on my own free will, being a pharmacist with a private pharmacy helps a great deal in order to buy and experiment with expensive substances. Also, what you type is wrong, I have found it on various concentrations per mg, on Sigma Aldrich and from what I see the only limitation is  the money needed to buy it and finally I already have a second formula, provided by one of my suppliers from North America, that deploys Perfluorocarbons as well in combination with Hyaluronidase, I happen to have already a mix of Perfluorocarbons named FiFlow BTX….like I said I am not your average pharmacist…have a nice day…

[Dreamer77]

Pharma said:

Hyaluronidase:

- Is a prescription drug

- Is indicated for dissolving hyaluronic acid (if too much has been injected or at the wrong place), for certain types of eye surgery, and against certain types of inflammatory diseases and pleura and joint effusions

- Only works by injection

- Requires cold storage

- Will degrade in a serum and even if not, will not work topically

- Currently only available with 150 I.E. and 300 I.E., 1’500 I.E. is out of stock in Europe

- Doesn’t work with 100% efficacy, especially not against eye bags. Scalpel, needle and thread would be your best choice… however, these are very difficult to dissolve in a serum :p .

I wouldn’t be so sure that it works only by injection, you should know better than that by now. There are penetration enhancers, liposomes etc that someone can deploy in order to achieve the result. When it arrives in my hands it will not need cold storage as I will dissolve and incorporate it into my testing product which is ready and stable. Oh yeah I bought it already for testing purposes and will pair it with other actives against water retention. Will keep the post updated with my results.

[Dreamer77]

The reason your formula does not feel moisturising enough is because you use too much of polyquaternium on the one side and on the other side you do not have enough emulsifier with a good load of oils. Polyquaternium causes a rapid absorption of the oil phase from the skin and creates some sort of film on the skin, you want the skin to feel nurished and hydrated and so you need more oils for that. I have been working a long time on a formula like this using as main emulsifier Emulium Delta paired to either cetyl alcohol/cetearyl alcohol/behenyl alcohol…of the three cetearyl alcohol 30/70 feels best, cetyl alcohol reduces slip while behenyl alcohol feels right after 1 hour of application…but contributes to a more dry skin feel. Your lotion is cationic, the charge provided by the polyquaternium and such you have to use a strong emulsifier at adequate levels paired to cetearyl alcohol and a maximum 1.5% of polyquaternium. From my experience a total of 30-35% of oily phase is needed to have a stable emulsion with excellent moisturising properties… I calculate the polyquaternium on the oily phase as well even though it creates gel with the water, it dissolves on the oily phase too…

[Dreamer77]

You can also try Menthol Nicotinate at 0.5% to avoid redness on skin

[Dreamer77]

I would use DMI at 5% paired to EDG at 2%. THP would not make any difference as it is destined for hydrosoluble ingredients only. Also, I would raise pH to 5.0

[Dreamer77]

I would reduce N350 to 1%…it is efficient at 10% of the total emulsifiers you have, at 3% that you use it, it creates an obstacle on spreading…also, reduce the polyquaternium level to 1.5%…at 2% it will dry out the skin and does not give a very good skin feel….pair it with same amount of cetearyl alcohol as well….glycerine level is good…optimal I would say

[Dreamer77]

For benchmark testing, mainly skin feel I have used the hand cream of Shiseido that sells for around $75/75ml. 

[Dreamer77]

Personally for my hand cream  I use the following ingredients…

Olivoil Avenate

Heliogel

Cetyl Alcohol

Hyaulonic Acid powder

Urea

Panthenol

Cupuacu Butter

Avocado oil

Buritti oil

Sunflower seed oil

StJohns Wort oil

Calendula oil

Gosulin IL

Spectrastat

Glycerine

Oat Mother extract

Chamomille extract glycolic

Chamomille extract ethanolic

Chamollile fragrance

And a couple highend glycolic extracts

I formulate with expensive ingredients only as I look for fast results and do not take into account the final cost of the formula as my product is second to none regarding aspect texture skin feel hydration and result of usage.

It deeply hydrates the skin, restoring the skin barrier and reinforcing it making the skin more elastic, moreover it is not sticky at all, sure it will wear off if the user washes the hands however with daily application twice the hands are in optimal shape within 2-3 days of use. Currently I produce it in batches of 2kg per batch and it sells for $7/50ml.  It can also be used as a face moisturiser (without the perfume). It also has been used as a skin rush medication on diaper change on babies with optimal results since 1st application despite the fact it does not include any zinc oxide at all. 

[Dreamer77]

Abdullah said:

@Dreamer77 which country are you living in? 

Greece

[Dreamer77]

Pharma said:

…In both your pictures and the ones highlighting the Olay product, the lighting is completely different in each picture…

So how comes that in all of your pictures, the right one looks like when I hit the ‘auto-adjust colors’ button in IrfanView? Everything seems altered: brightness, contrast, gamma, saturation…

Top to bottom, I photographed 1-5…the others were sent to me by the users… I work with photos, I ask them to send me photographs so as I can see their skin, flaws, problems as I work on these issues… really I do not know how to adjust those parameters and honestly I wouldn’t bother as there’s no point for me doing that..