[Doreen]

@johnb

I’m afraid I would class oat kernel extract (and oil) as fairy dust but that’s perhaps my geriatric cynicism.

Nothing wrong with your cynicism, which I think also stems from your long time experience in this field. All the reason I value your suggestions and opinions even more, since I am a total rookie!
I do believe oat has good traits, in the proper concentration though, maybe also because I’ve had good experience with oatmeal on skin during eczemic outbreaks.

I’m from The Netherlands/Holland.

[Doreen]

@johnb

Why not try with a non-oily oat extract in place of the oil 

Like I said ^ I am desperately looking for the oat kernel extract!! People here (in this country) seem to prefer fairydust ingredients, like colloidal gold. 

Thanks for the suggestions. The emulsifiers I can choose here are quite limited, so I’ll go with your advice not to use too many lipid materials first. I sure will keep the types you mentioned in mind (and written on a note ) as I’m keeping an eye on new suppliers, new goods in their assortment.

[Doreen]

@johnb,
I thought the whole combination of Glyceryl Stearate + PEG100 stearate would be a ‘self-emulsifying’ one. And the addition of 2% cetyl alcohol would make it a stronger one, also for the high amount of B3 and a bit thickening.
What emulsifiers do you suggest, preferably pH stable?

I know 12% oil is a lot and I would like the avena sativa kernel extract instead…
It is quite costly indeed. There is only one company here that sells oat kernel oil, it’s not very common, unlike wheat germ oil for example.

@crisbaysauli,
Thanks, I will prehydrate it with glycerin before adding to the water phase.
Do you also have suggestions for better emulsifiers?

[Doreen]

@Belassi, @MarkBroussard
My idea aswell, next time I’ll throw in xanthan gum also before emulsification, maybe 0.5% is too much indeed, I’ll try 0.3% like you said.

And the oat kernel oil… I was worried about that too, but since this oil can’t stand heating, I thought I’ll try adding it afterwards, that could be a good solution if this oil wasn’t such a major part of the oil phase, like you pointed out Mark.

About adding gums in the heated water phase: do I have to disperse the xanthan before I add it to the heated water? Or is pre hydration not needed at temperatures like 70C?

[Doreen]

@zwapp
Typo, bisabolol had to be 0.2%, sorry my mistake.
(my bisabolol is natural too btw)

Edit: I see another typo, % of water, it’s late here I call it a day!

[Doreen]

Thanks, I have to share this, I’ve got several family members and friends that are chemophobic.

[Doreen]

@Perry
About my question about the stability of niacinamide, I finally found more information. I don’t think I have to worry, at least not for a few months for sure.

The reason being is that this hydrolysis takes a considerable amount of time. At a pH of 2 and 90°C it takes over 75 hours to convert half of the niacinamide in to niacin. Heat greatly speeds up chemical interactions, and at normal temperatures this translates in to weeks, if not months.
http://kindofstephen.com/niacinamide-and-its-breakdown-into-niacin/

[Doreen]

  
Very funny hahaha

This may not be a periodic table joke, but fun anyway:
I almost peed my pants when I was reading this post, look for @MarkBroussard ‘s comment. 

[Doreen]

@johnb,
Here it says ‘limited availabilty’ and ‘out of stock’ now.
So much BS, unbelievable! Cruelty free and made in China do not really go together.  

Their baby powder is ‘voluntarily’ recalled aswell.
https://www.honest.com/baby/organic-baby-powder
http://people.com/bodies/jessica-alba-honest-company-recalls-organic-baby-powder/

[Doreen]

@Perry,
The moisturiser was bodymilk-thin, now about 4 hours later, it has thickened to a nice creamy structure.

But… I’ve been really really stupid about something else… 

Niacinamide is one of my favourite ingredients, no doubt. I totally forgot about niacinamide turning into niacin in an acidic environment.
Do you know from which pH this happens? The pH of the finished and already packed (in a ‘locked’ airless dispenser) moisturiser is about 4.5
Because of the addition of potassium sorbate I was totally fixed on getting quite below pH5… 
I say ‘about’ because my pH meter states 4.4 and the pH strip looks 4.8. I just calibrated my pH meter, so I think it goes more to 4 than 5. I lowered it with a citric acid solution.
I made, for my doings, quite a batch with 200 ml, with valuable ingredients, so I hope it will be ok.  :#

Apart from the flushing, does niacin for the rest have the same benefits as niacinamide?

Should I put this question in a new discussion btw? 

[Doreen]

We believe the affected product is not likely to cause adverse health consequences, however, impacted wipes do have a spotted discoloration and the aesthetics are unacceptable

What kind of an apology is this if they don’t even take full responsibility? A recall because the mold is no more than just an ‘aesthetic’ issue? And then name yourself ‘the Honest Company’. Really.  😮

[Doreen]

@zwapp
Thanks for the reminder, you’re right! I’ve got tocopherol acetate aswell, so that’s not a problem. Or I just leave it out, both.

[Doreen]

@DRBOB@VERDIENT.BIZ

At 7 K sorbate doesn’t work but you can use either BA or Phenoxyethanol at 1%. 

Does that mean I don’t need additional antifungal excipients at pH7 or >7?

[Doreen]

Edit:  message deleted, question is answered above.

[Doreen]

@DRBOB@VERDIENT.BIZ
I didn’t know the optimum stability of ZnO being so high? And what about the TiO2?
Will it really be a problem to put it at 5.5? If it is necessary, I’ll raise the pH with Na lactate and get rid of the phenoxy and potassium sorbate (which isn’t stable then I assume) and just do the Cosgard (BA +DHA).
Or just phenoxyethanol alone?

[Doreen]

@Belassi, I don’t have NaOH, so I’ll do it the bicarb way. Actually, is it ok to rely on seeing no more CO2 bubbles as end of reaction, or is this too inaccurate?

About not waiting for evaporation of the water and using the solution, what % of sodium citrate would I have if I would use the amounts you mentioned earlier, because the reaction gives extra H2O, do I have to keep that in mind if I calculate the concentration of the solution?

A quick thought, please bear with me:
For every 2.1 g of citric acid, use 2.5 g of sodium bicarbonate, you’ll get 2.9 g of sodium citrate after evaporating the water.
I need to add it to the salicylic acid in propylene glycol. I thought of adding 50 ml sodium citrate 1% solution. So then I need:
0,36 grams of citric acid and 0,43 grams of sodiumbicarbonate in 50 ml water to obtain 1% if I want to add no more than 50 ml 1% solution.
Am I thinking right here, or is there a fallacy?

Thanks!!!

[Doreen]

@MarkBroussard
Seriously, does anyone really think that a 1% Phenoxyethanol, Dehydroacetic Acid & Potassium Sorbate combination at pH < 5.5 in an airless container stored in the refrigerator is not going to adequately preserve Doreen’s product which is purely for personal use over a 3 month period?

Doreen, you should be just fine on preservation.

Thank you, I’m glad to get this (re)assurance from a microbiologist! 

[Doreen]

@johnb

Not just an ideal situation, an essential one!
The costs involved if anything goes wrong are astronomical.

I don’t sell my stuff, it’s for own use. And I don’t make large quantities, generally I use it within 2-3 months, except for the vitamin C serum (Skinceuticals emulation), which is about 3 weeks.

[Doreen]

@DRBOB@VERDIENT.BIZ

If you need to get rid of discoloration  use 1% benzyl alcohol-good compatibility with PVC and PE (low and high density) 

Thanks! Will keep that in mind.

@MarkBroussard
Thank you! I’m glad to read I don’t need much dehydroacetic acid in the combination you mentioned in a 1% solution of all three. It has a very chemical, medicinal smell.

@Belassi

I found a major problem with dehydroacetic acid. It reacted with the potassium glycrrhizate in our high-end product, precipitating out the insoluble form. It’s far too chemically active for my liking.

Hmm another interaction… I will keep this in mind, since I like to use licorice root and I’m looking for this easy soluble and colorless potassium salt, but can’t find it here yet.
I already helped to convince a supplier here to take oat extract in their assortment. Hopefully they will see the need for potassium glycrrhizate aswell. Both oat extract and licorice are multifunctional and if I see the whole list of fairydust ingredients that they do sell… it’s beyond me. It seems that a lot of customers rather buy fancy stuff like colloidal gold for example than stuff that really works.

@johnb

Each formulation was assessed and a suitable preservative/preservative blend selected to suit. 

This would indeed be the ideal situation…

[Doreen]

@Belassi,
Exactly. I’ll use it as a solution, so this can be done real quick.

The equation says a 1:3 ratio btw? Or do I read it wrong, it’s late here, brain is foggy.
C6H8O7 + 3NaHCO3

---

Na3C6H5O7 + 3CO2(g) + 3H2O (with loss of heat)

edit: it gives trisodiumcitrate. I’m not sure if my citric acid is anhydrous btw.

[Doreen]

@Belassi,
Ok. We always say demi water for demineralized here.  

[Doreen]

@Belassi,
Thanks. Will not be a problem for me, because the quantities I make are gone within no more than 3 months.

[Doreen]

@Belassi ,
Thanks anyway. I thought NaOH would be necessary, never thought of bicarb.

Yes demi water. I boil it for about 20 mins. For own use.

Demineralised water is made by passing the water through specially manufactured resins. The resin is designed to exchange ions in the water so that the final result leaves you with the chemical composition of pure water.

I know distilled/aqua purificata is different, but I thought demi water is being deionized? ^ Source

[Doreen]

@Belassi,
Thank you so much!  Which one do I need to dissolve first? Can I use demi water for this and how much? 

[Doreen]

@DRBOB@VERDIENT.BIZ
Between 3.5 and 5.5 (exfoliants and vitamin C serum 3.5, moisturizers between 4.8-5.5).

@Bill_Toge
This is the source I get most of my information on preservatives on, also about the plastics.
If you read that, you get the feeling you can’t use anything.

So if I use, like 8% E-wax (glyceryl stearate + PEG-100 stearate) and 2% cetyl alcohol, it is still ok to use phenoxyethanol or benzyl alcohol in normal amounts? And what about PEG-40 HCO?

About the potassium sorbate: how long does it generally take before it turns yellow/brown? I’ll use what I have now and then switch to another for mold/yeast. Thanks for the warning!