[Doreen]

So the whole whitening hype has even made a jump to pet owners who are insecure about the colour of their pet’s fur?
Personally I would already be more than happy to have a happy and healthy pet, but ok.
You already mention that dogs have a ‘more fragile skin’. Don’t you think you should make the care for your dog’s skin and general health make your nr.1 top priority? Plus I don’t think your dog should be a guinea pig for your whitening experiments with enzymes or whatever ingredient. It’s not a piece of laundry!

[Doreen]

Regarding synonyms. Cetyl palmitate used to be derived from the waxy substance in the head of sperm whales. A few suppliers here use names like ‘synthetic cetaceum’, or ‘cetyl esters’, like @chemicalmatt mentioned.

“Synthetic spermaceti/cetaceum consists of esters of saturated, long chained fatty acids and alcohols, basically cetyl palmitate.”
https://www.in-cosmetics.com/__novadocuments/2531

I agree with @Pharma , myristyl myristate can be a good substitute, it gives a lovely skin feel. A disadvantage can be that it’s more ‘shiny’ (in e.g. daycreams I use a lower level if I use it).
(I haven’t used stearyl stearate myself yet, so can’t say anything about it, but if @chemicalmatt names it as alternative, I’m sure it’s a great option as well.)

[Doreen]

@Sibech
Microbial growth on the surface isn’t uncommon, same for other anhydrous products that come in contact with water. Better be safe than sorry. I agree with @marytsiang .
I myself use 0.1% propyl paraben in lipbalms. And lipsticks, but I hardly make those.

[Doreen]

@ngarayeva001
I think she did, they even travel the world with it

Kidding aside, you’re right, I hope so too. Point with people like her is they can’t be reasoned with. They stubbornly believe fake internet ‘doctors’ and all kinds of bullsh*t sites rather than consulting credible sources. They know it better than academically trained professionals because they have done ‘extensive research’, which seems to be the equivalent of using Google and reading some stuff here and there.
The refusal to use their common sense (if they even have it), oftentimes even up to the point of conspiracy theories, ‘Big Pharma’, chemtrails etc.
The weird thing is, my far away relative wasn’t always as distrustful and downright stupid as she is now.
Like a well functioning computer that somewhere along the line went totally haywire and started rejecting its anti-virus software.

[Doreen]

MarkBroussard said:

One thing the world will never find lacking is a shortage of idiots … LOL!  

Too true.
Not to sound cliché, but she’s also anti-vaxx.
Glad I got rid of my Facebook account. With that one click there go all the ‘out-of-courtesy-accepted-friendship requests-from-far away-relatives’. (in this case far away genetically (phew!) and in distance) :relieved:

[Doreen]

@MarkBroussard
Yup!

[Doreen]

@ngarayeva001
(…) Generally speaking nothing special, but look what that pinch of silver and platinum (bold) did to the price tag (…)

I think the figure on that price tag is only caused by that stupid brandname. What is it with you and these insanely expensive brands? 😆

Good that you mention the danger of ‘colloidal silver’ ingestion, @Perry.
I know someone who drinks this stuff and describes all kinds of magical effects to it (I wonder when her skin will start looking like this). Ironically, she’s extremely chemophobic.

[Doreen]

You’re welcome!

[Doreen]

Aliacura and Alexmo Cosmetics from Germany sell a lot of Evonik/Dr. Straetmans products. Aliacura ships nearly worldwide, Alexmo only to European countries.

Good luck, I hope you’ll find what you’re looking for.

[Doreen]

Erratum (my previous reply ^ )
SymSitive is not a patented ingredient by the brand Eucerin, it’s the main ingredient in their Rosacea, Ultra Sensitive line (along with licorice). It’s even sold by repackers like MakingCosmetics (only in bulk though, about $1500 per 5 kg).
Eucerin claims to have a patent on their ‘self closing/double protection’ system in their airless packaging, exactly the type that I always use that’s sold by DIY supplier Aliacura. Either their website is far from up to date or they’re full of ?  (regarding patents).

[Doreen]

@ngarayeva001
Ah, same as for the Netherlands, not that bad for a parcel weight up till 10 kilograms (the German suppliers Alexmo and Aliacura are about the same).
I’ll leave the colour cosmetics to the professionals. I find it hard enough to find the best make up amongst the pro brands, let alone having to wear my own home made concoctions. :joy:
(Apart from some lipsticks I make for fun, I actually only make skincare and mostly leave on.)

[Doreen]

@Pharma
I use sunflower oil for purposes like that (removing sticker residue etc). Much cheaper. 🙂 (not from paws though, usually from plastics or glass)

@ngarayeva001
Thanks for the tip. I’ll place an order at glamourcosmetics in Italy soon, I saw they have lots of other interesting stuff! One of the very few European DIY suppliers who are selling more rheology modifiers than xanthan gum (sometimes I see CMC or some kind of origin-unknown-carbomer but that’s about it.) And they sell aluminum chlorohydrate! Yay! :blush:

[Doreen]

@Gunther
You’re right. Cyclo D5 too has gotten more regulations and I see an obvious decrease in products over here that are based on it. Might be the reason why Garnier has discontinued to sell their D5-based hair oil in this country.

A shame, because I love it, the scent is absolutely adorable. I have very long hair and after I wash it it’s also great for smooth detangling when it’s still wet (and to keep that scent lingering!).
And you really wonder how it doesn’t feel greasy at all, with all that Argan and Camellia oil in it, must be some kind of miracle formula! I really can feel that it nourishes and protects my hair and repairs those split ends! :trollface:

[Doreen]

@Pharma
You’re totally right. And because hibiscus is acidic, I suspected that to be the culprit. I already was prepared for having to use more NaOH than usual to raise the pH in the cool down. I read in a leaflet of a manufacturer of dipotassium glycyrrhizate that it could form a gel when combined with inorganic acids, but since I thought I didn’t use any inorganic acids in that salicylic acid toner I was a bit baffled.
Because as I wrote in my previous reply: I used dipotassium glycyrrhizate every time in that 2% salicylic acid toner without a problem! No gelforming at all! So that’s when I thought, hey maybe that hibiscus extract that I use now as new addition may contain some inorganic acids? No idea, I’m not a bota … how do you call them, botanist? :smiley:
@Bill_Toge  also gave good explanations about how licorice salts can behave with acids, inorganic or organic. But it’s still a mystery because I never had it turning into a gel before in acidic formulations with salicylic acid.

N.B. Paula’s Choice uses that licorice salt too in one (or more) of her (liquid) exfoliating toners (pH of 3.2 even!) Probably in a lower concentration though. In my toner I use it at 0.3% (and have used it at 0.4%) without any problems at a pH between 3.7-3.9. Weird.
I’m totally with @ngarayeva001 that it’s tricky. I tried Euxyl PE9010 to preserve it a while ago and it precipitated.

[Doreen]

ngarayeva001 said:

I wonder if aspirin even works for this purpose. I heard that many times, but as far as I understand aspirin is acetyl-salicylic acid which is a different molecule.

It is indeed different, it is salicylic acid that has reacted with acetic anhydride. I have worked with acetylsalicylic acid in bulk (powder form). After a while you when you open the container you get a whiff of acetic acid smell when it has decomposed into rest products, i.a. salicylic acid).

@Perry (and ngarayeva001), it does work. Maybe not in scientifically correct researches, but the huge doses and the abnormally long exposure time (see Bill Toge’s explanation) probably make it work. I have seen video’s and pictures before and after, it looks like a typical ‘too much wart ointment left on too long’ (whitish skin that can be peeled off by layers).
I have also personally witnessed how acetylsalicylic acid reacts with stomach tissue, after a while it had the same corrosive effect.

@Bill_Toge
Thanks for the explanation!
You’re totally right with the maximum levels. But sadly so many try homemade concoctions and completely overdo it.

@Pharma
It’s ok. I understand.

ngarayeva001 said:

Just curious whether salicylic acid penetrates and works when it isn’t properly solubilized? Because if not then the risk that someone inexperienced overuses it is minimal. I have a little bit of formulating experience but I cannot solubilize even 2%. Yes it solubilizes in PG. and then recrystalises again (in a toner).

Like Pharma explained, SA does work when dispersed instead of dissolved.
And because of its lipophilic character (which is quite unique for an acid) it can even (partially) dissolve in a fatty medium and it has a better affinity with skin being lipophilic (lipid membranes/sebum).
So a non-occlusive aqueous medium could potentially be less risky (even when fully dissolved).

I thought I shared my formula (+ descriptions) with 2% salicylic acid toner with you a while ago?
If you also follow those (SA in polyol phase, both phases heated to 70C and polyol phase slowly adding to water phase at 70C and not waiting too long with raising the pH to at least 3.2 in the cool down) you should be fine. I’ve been making this toner for years now and I love it!
Remember that a formula alone doesn’t necessarily say a lot, it’s the description, the ‘protocol’ how to use it, that can make it fail or work.
But you’re totally right that it can be tricky. Once I tried another extract (hibiscus) along with the licorice salt I always use, and it turned into a gel. I thought only inorganic acids would turn that licorice salt into a gel, but Bill explained it could happen with organic acids as well. But the strange thing was that I used this licorice salt all the time with salicylic acid without problems.
If you still find it too troublesome/cumbersome, you can try Curcylic 40 at 5% (cocamidopropyl dimethylamine + 40% salicylic acid), it’s very easy to use. Trulux sells it too.

[Doreen]

You’re totally right. I googled on a perfumery drugstore here and got a more than €1000 la mer jar when I searched for it. It appeared to be 250 ml, a smaller jar was indeed ‘cheaper’.

I don’t get why people don’t complain about it being everything but ‘green/eco/natural’, I mean the preservative alone: thiazolinones! Those are used in rinse off and usually not even in cosmetics here (let alone leave on), mostly detergents.
The level of eucalyptus extract in it is said to be on the high side and they use niacin instead of the amide form. I think my skin couldn’t even tolerate it.
What a shrewd marketing crew must that have been. (This revolutionary product! A 5 ct jar filled to the rim with mineral oils, tested on animals and costs only a measly 180 dollars for a whopping amount of 1 ounce!)

[Doreen]

ngarayeva001 said:

Oh how much money wasted…. It was one of those things I just kept buying because it’s included in all chanel/dior/la mer moisturisers and never questioned.
Thank you Doreen for raising this question.
Thank you, Mark for your input.

You’re welcome!
Tip: ignore chanel/dior/la mer and analyze LOIs of more interesting brands like Uncover (it’s in Dutch, but select a product and then ‘ingrediënten’ and you’ll get the LOI according to INCI) or Paula’s Choice. Especially La Mer is ridiculous and still uses seventies formulas, like that wonder 1000 dollar cream with seaweed and vaseline (both of these making it so expensive of course! Oh yes, and the jar!)
(that difference between the expert rating and community rating: https://www.beautypedia.com/products/creme-de-la-mer/ )

ngarayeva001 said:

Funny enough, for many products that include tocopheryl acetate, it isn’t even mentioned in the marketing story. It’s in so many products!

Exactly! Many times it’s together with tocopherol, other times alone. But actually it’s never really promoted in their marketing story.
I mean if they would hire formulators, like @Perry used to do for companies (if I remember correctly): analyze formulas and get rid of all the unnecessary items that only make the product more expensive. It’s even in the cheapest products that are sold in 1$ outlets!

[Doreen]

@mikethair
The brand is Tritium (select English flag right above for site translation) and the type I was referring to in particular were rodac plates with TSA. 

[Doreen]

Pharma said:

@Dtdang Try it. Given that these are two of the most common ingredients I doubt that they work, they must have been tried more than once before…

Exactly.
Neither does this. Extremely pricey ingredient that did literally zero for my sister’s skin. (If those brands like La Roche Posay etc. using it as claim ingredient, it must be at <0,00001% or something as it discolours, smells and is hard to preserve at 0.3% already (Seppic’s lowest recommended use level).
And neither does licorice in any form. Nor 4-t-Butylcyclohexanol Trans-Isomer (Symsitive, patent by Eucerin) ,nor …… => mention here any so called rosacea active. Or any cosmetic active for that matter.
The people who give these brands positive critique are obviously overly sensitive for a visual placebo effect.
And those before and after pictures in manufacturer’s leaflets. Do they use laser treatment instead of their own ‘actives’ or something?

[Doreen]

@Pharma
My sincere apologies if I did misunderstand that part!!
It’s terribly late and I should go to bed rather than participate on forums with my sleepy head. :sleeping:

Had to mention as I couldn’t delete my previous message anymore.

[Doreen]

@Pharma
What do you mean with ‘great skin penetration, systemic effect!’
How can a topical salicylic acid dispersion ever have systemic effect as target?
Several intoxications and even deaths have happened due to salicylic acid intoxication due to topical use. These occurances usually happened in patients with damaged skin and needed application on relatively large body parts, like with ichthyosis. But cases in healthy patients have been mentioned as well, usually not leading to death, but still quite serious. 
I even remember a salicylate intoxication (also topical) of a forum member here. Maybe if you search, the discussion might still appear. I won’t mention this member’s name if he/she doesn’t begin about it his or herself.
Physicians, especially GP’s, don’t always recognize a salicylate intoxication (especially not if the pathway was transdermal), so numbers aren’t always correct. Plus many cases are mild and linked to other diseases. The recognition amongst GP’s I know from a clinical pharmacist I have worked with, who of course dealt a lot with intoxicated cases.
(So I know from a good source that I’m not overreacting with my warnings here and there.)

I’m a bit amazed, as I am sure that you know all of this and probably a lot more than I do. Or did I misunderstand the seamingly positively sounding ‘great effect!’ sentence?
I know this forum is also viewed a lot (and sometimes taken part of) by usually girls who feel a desire to seriously overdo salicylic acid dispersions, either in aqeous or fatty medium for home made peels, that’s why I also feel a need to give a warning.
A DIY webshop here in NL even sells aspirin tablets for this reason. “Grind about eight to ten tablets in a few spoons of honey or vaseline.” 
Google on DIY blogs or Youtube for ‘home made aspirin mask’.
You’ll be horrified by the naivety. Concentrations don’t seem important, nor the time of exposure. When used on feet and upper arms, I see some using ‘extra’ occlusion by using socks or even plastic. And leaving it overnight. *shudders*

(As a side note. I think Aspirin (or generic) tablets are mostly used in those DIY blogs instead of salicylic acid, or SA containing products e.g. Curcylic 40, because (at least here) it’s much easier to get. And oh well, it might give a bit of an analgetic effect too. (As far as I remember well from school, only the acetic anhydride reaction yielding its analgetic effect, and both forms being anti-inflammatory?)

Edit about the part that’s striked through: That particular DIY site has removed not only the ‘how to make a home made aspirin mask’ blog, but also has stopped selling aspirin tablets alltogether I see just now. I don’t know the reason but I could think of one!

[Doreen]

ozgirl said:

Check the use by date on your Microcount dipslides. They have a very short shelf life (<12 months). 

And usually even way shorter!
We had so often growth on unused plates that were still in unopened package (and still had a good expiry date!) the decision followed to use double sterilized plates (those that are also sterilized in its secundary package) instead. More pricey, but problem solved! And to imagine that the primary packages of the plates were only opened in class B cleanrooms…
(Ok, these are a different brand and are plates instead of dipslides, but the medium and use are the same)

[Doreen]

re: deeper in skin
Maybe they name W/O because these are occlusive and thus the used pharm. active has longer exposure time on skin.
Urea has been used to penetrate nails in some cases I believe (fungal or psoriasis related, not sure)
DMSO in extreme cases of extravasation of some chemos, but it’s not common in dermatics.
I think it’s mostly marketing propaganda (“penetrates in deeper skin layers”)
I can only think of a few medicinal reasons wanting actives in deeper skin layers and those aren’t cosmetic by far. And shouldn’t be!

[Doreen]

@ngarayeva001
Do you mean pharmaceutical creams? Ointments are W/O or anhydrous per its name (ointment or ‘salve’), or at least that’s the correct name usage here in NL. The Lanette cream I shared was O/W. I think there are about just as many O/W as W/O. It just depends on the indication, skin pathology, environment (is it a dry or wet environment, hairy or non hairy etc etc). That’s only my quick explanation as I am short in time.

[Doreen]

@ngarayeva001
Glad you found the culprit! 🙂
I never use fragrances in facial creams anymore either.