David08848
Forum Replies Created
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chemicalmatt posted: “Pepe, since this sounds like a typical alkali saponification formula,
limit your emollient additives to the water phase. I’d suggest
Polyquaternium-7, another acrylamide copolymer (see Merquats), PEG-12
Dimethicone, PPG-5 Ceteth-20 (Ele’ Corporation’s - NOT Croda’s); all
compatible with the anionic system to some degree. These will lend the
slip without affecting the soap.”I’ve got a gallon of Polyquaternium-7 sitting there waiting for me to try! Thanks for the suggestion back in 2014!
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Yes, and it is available from IOI Oleo GmbH… in Denmark!
I’ve come to the conclusion that this might not be the best product for my intended purpose! I’ll just keep looking through Shaving Cream product ingredients listings and see if there is anything that strikes my eye!
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It does seem to have a nice feel although I am concerned about this prescription which was written on http://www.cosmeticsinfo.org/ingredient/octyldodecanol :
“Stearyl Alcohol, Oleyl Alcohol and Octyldodecanol help to form emulsions and prevent an emulsion from separating into its oil and liquid components. These ingredients
also reduce the tendency of finished products to generate foam when
shaken.”…especially since it is a “foamy” shaving cream!
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That would be great as I have looked for such a program and found nothing! The other problem I am having is that I am determined to follow the ingredients listing of the British Shaving Cream companies, many of whom have these exact ingredients in this exact order:
Water, Stearic Acid,
Myristic Acid, Potassium Hydroxide, Coconut Acid, Glycerin, Triethanolamine, Sodium
Hydroxide, Fragrance, preservative.Following the recommendations of Poucher and Thomssen for the ratios of ingredients required to create a shaving cream with certain characteristics, I have come so close but mine read:
Water, Stearic Acid,
Myristic Acid, Potassium Hydroxide, Coconut Acid, Glycerin, Sodium
Hydroxide,Triethanolamine, Fragrance, preservative.Since Trienthanolamine Stearate helps to create a “creamier” lather and what is called “cushion”. I am seeking to create a product as close to the British Shaving Cream companies as is possible but TEA Stearate also seems make the cream more firm and pasty. It’s a balancing act and after 20 batches in the last three months, I’m eager to find the right formula! I’m so close but not there yet!
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Clive, I’ve been on the computer for two hours trying to figure this out! So, I got the numbers right..but I just didn’t know what to do with them but I did divide 284.2 by 149.2 but didn’t understand how the 1.90 related… having a “duh” moment!
So, what I gather is that some formulators will add an extra part of Stearic Acid so that the Triethanolamine become the limiting reactant in the formula! Others have mentioned slightly reducing the amount of triethanolamine in proportion to the stearic acid used to again make the Triethanolamine the limiting reactant in the formula. The excerpt I posted from the Modern Cosmetics book from the 1930’s made me think that either it was error in posting or in the 1930’s 99% triethanolamine may not have been available or commonly used!?
Anyway, I got my answer and I appreciate your help! As an addendum, one of the biggest problems I have had with this shaving cream formula is determining whether I should be adding the Triethanolamine Stearate to the formula or replacing some of the fatty acids and bases with it! Now, I am thinking to just add the Triethanolamine Stearate to the formula and recalculate the rest. Finding examples of formulas that are “soap based” without the addition of surfactants and using NaOH, KOH and TEA has been a real problem!
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So, I looked up the molecular weight of
Triethanolamine: Molecular
Weight:149.19 g/mol
and Stearic Acid: Molecular
Weight:284.484 g/mol
Pssst! Belassi! I only took Chemistry 1 in High School and that was in 1973…
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I did and came up with several different answers which is why I asked the question.
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Belassi, I was told by Kevin Young, a cosmetic chemist:
“The stoichiometric relationship for making
TEA-Stearate is 2:1 stearic acid to 99% TEA.”LOL, so which is it? :p
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I’m coming back to this because I have found some conflicting information regarding the amount of TEA and Stearic Acid to combine to create TEA Stearate. I was under the impression that 1 part of TEA would completely saponify 2 parts of Stearic Acid and found several formulas that agreed but went even further saying that 3 parts of Stearic and 1 part of TEA would work better because you would be sure to achieve full neutralization this way.
I just found a listing in an old Cosmetic Chemistry book called “Modern Cosmetics” that says:
Shouldn’t that be “triethanolamine (25%) to melted stearic acid (75%)???
I may try making Tea Stearate and adding it to the oil phase to “melt” as was suggested by a couple of formulas… never ending battle here…
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8. Waiting a month to see the finished results of the formula.
So many of the older books suggested that the consistency and appearance would vary over a period of time were right! Although the initial results appeared to be promising, the slight adjustments in the “final” formulation proved too be too loose and wet in consistency! So this means I have to go back and make more adjustments in the opposite direction and see how well they work over time! I will be trying the Octyldodecanol that I received this week in the formula to see if that will provide some improvement in “slip and glide” although I’m not sure if it will assist in the “cushion”! Just when you think you’re there…
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Sourcing this product has been a problem but in researching it I did find one reference that it was better in many aspects as Shea Butter and another suggesting it has the consistency of lard which got me thinking… perhaps I could combine some Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride with some Shea Butter… just thinking through that at the moment… any thoughts?
I haven’t found a formula or product listing with this ingredients that is only “soap based” as my formula is so I am thinking that it isn’t saponified in the process…
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The three ingredients I would question would be Palm, Shea and Cocoa Butters. Castor oil makes a highly water soluble liquid soap, Olive oil is also a fine ingredient for liquid soap because it’s Oleic Acid content is in the 80%-82% range and Coconut oil is also great because of it’s mid-chain fatty acids that help create lather. I remember that Hemp seed oil didn’t have a very nice smell to it though! Again, I would question the use of Palm because of it’s higher chain fatty acids, especially if you want to make a clear product!
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It depends on whether you are seeking a “clear” finished product!
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Thanks for your reply, Perry! When you say “if you are making a formula where 0.75% water would make a difference in the outcome, that’s not a particularly robust formula.” I am not sure I understand.
As far as the production batches, I am working with 100 oz. batches at the moment which , I assume, would be considered small but I always replace any evaporated water so that my total always equals 100% but I can certainly see that in the industry what you stated would be the norm…
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Bill, does is have an oily or greasy feeling to it?
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At the top of a messages is a post entitled:
Need Formulating Services Here Are Some Contacts
below is the link:
Perhaps that might be a more appropriate place to post about your services?
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I did find a listing of a “typical use level” of 2%-20% and additional lathering shaving cream products that include it in their ingredients list so that made me feel more comfortable with the idea and I ordered a gallon from a local N.J. reseller to try. I even included it in my formula that I worked with in my “Rounding Off Numbers” thread here and hopefully it will provide the characteristics I’m seeking in my formula!
I’m thinking of adding in my homogenization phase on the second day but was wondering about putting it in the initial process. I does list an SAP value of about 3 at the lowest and 5 at the highest which is a concern although it is extremely low but still worth investigating! If anyone has any info or suggestions, they will be greatly appreciated!
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Thanks Bill! I spent the last couple of days looking at this formula from every direction and perspective and it seems that I had been following what you just suggested unknowingly. Adding ingredients early on in this process, I wasn’t aware that I needed to adjust the amount of something like a preservative to make it have the right usage rate for a “formula” that was larger than 100% but once I did all the calculations and made all the adjustments, all the numbers fell into place and worked in relation to one another which is also very important in this type of formula.
Now after going through it all and putting everything in the calculator I find that my formula is exactly the same as I had it before which is reassuring! Adding the little extra .073 type number back into the water phase helped things to work and taking a number like .273 and turning into .3 also worked for me! Relationships between ingredients and phases are crucial to understand to do everything correctly! Now I get it! Thanks guys, for your input!
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I use an amount to percentage online calculator which works well for me.
http://www.ingredientstodiefor.com/item/Amount_to_Percentage_Calculator/873?category=115#
My question is just how far should I go? There is a balancing act going on and I just want to make sure I’m not going too far to make the numbers “work” in percentages! When I’m trying to get it to 9.0% and it actually would be better if it were 9.2% …along those lines… Once I have this basic cosmetic chemistry approach “learned” I can apply it to anything I am doing. I have a couple of scales and one goes to 0.00 weight so that’s not an issue…
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BobZ, Thanks so much for your reply! I always appreciate it when I can learn something new! As you probably know, I started out as “soapmaker” but learned very quickly how valuable having a “cosmetic chemistry” approach would be and how it would benefit me more! I certainly knew about “saponification” and had some awareness of “neutralizing” but your explanation gives clarification in it’s comparison of the two!
I will take a longer look at the amines mentioned and see if I can find any examples of it in a shaving product. I do have to be careful of expenses and also have to be aware of companies minimums which is one reason I have not changed over to replacing “coconut oil” with “coconut fatty acids”….yet! My first attempt at replacing NaOH with TEA didn’t come out as well as I had hoped and maybe I’ll try a larger percentage of TEA as I have seen a few formulas that have replaced the NaOH and are in the .3-.35 range rather than being closer to 1.0% as it is in mine and in others. So few examples of TEA use in lather shaving cream formulations which doesn’t help! Thanks again for your input and explanation! It is appreciated!
David
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I did finally manage to figure out how to replace some of the NaOH with TEA in my formula. By calculating just the NaOH percentage of this formula separate from the KOH percentage and determining the percentage of each of the three oils/fatty acids (Stearic, Myristic, Coconut oil) that make up that NaOH percentage, then removing just 1% of the Stearic Acid and recalculating the NaOH for that portion, I was able to keep the oil phase total exactly the same size and now saponify that 1% of Stearic Acid with an additional 0.5% of TEA and thereby slightly reducing the NaOH without changing the oil phase percentage at all and with a minimal change to the water percentage.
I tried to saponify the TEA in a 33% solution in the heated stearic acid but I don’t think that it actually is a benefit and would be better to include it in the NaOH and KOH portion and thereby get a better mixing of the formula. I’ll know more tomorrow when I get to see what it looks like in the beginning of the “curing” process!
Bob, I’m not sure there would be any benefit to a neutralizing agent in this type of soap-based formulation… thanks!
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Thanks everyone for their input! Bobz really hit the nail on the head about TEA soaps and their comparison to potassium and sodium soaps! A change in the characteristics is what I am seeking and knowing that the “positioning” of TEA in most of the popular brands ingredients list indicates to me that I need to up the percentage of TEA in my shaving cream formula very slightly above the NaOH percentage to give it the “cushion” or creaminess that it needs for shaving cream and to agree with the list.
I’m thinking that not only upping the percentage of TEA in the formula is what is needed but doing it as a new first phase will be the best way to accomplish it. By starting with the Stearic Acid and TEA first, creating a phase to just saponify that then going on to adding it to the other two oils in a second phase in which I add the other two bases, KOH and NaOH and adding that to the oil and TEA STEARATE in increments as I have just learned to do should help this to work!
1 part TEA to 2 parts STEARIC is what is needed plus a little extra STEARIC (or slightly less TEA) should give me the creaminess of lather and cushion I need. It still might be a balancing act with the oil/lye phase and the TEA STEARATE phase. I did read that 5% was the limit for TEA usage (may not be true…) but I certainly don’t need to go there! Thanks again for your help! I looked all over the place for an SAP value for TEA but couldn’t find it.
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Thanks Bill! That is what I was thinking although I didn’t have the proper terminology to express it.
I put together a sheet of all the formulas I am considering and went through each one analyzing the content and the finished product. I then changed the font to a pale gray for those I’m not using so it almost disappears on the Word document. Three remained: #26, #32 and #34.
#34 will probably be eliminated because it has a different ratio of the 3 main oils influenced by Flick which I haven’t used in my current product.
#32 used a slightly higher oil phase and glycerin at 10%. Many authors have suggested that anything above 5% glycerin is unnecessary and I think it is used at higher levels to get away with a higher oil phase so it doesn’t become too firm but it can take on characteristics you don’t want! This also has double the TEA and the finished product isn’t too bad…but with one incorrect SAP number and the rest I think this is on it’s way out!This leaves #26! The interesting thing about the 3rd version of #26 is that the water content and the oil content are almost identical!
So, these are things I have learned from this so far:
1. Adding extra water in the beginning of the process helps so that the evaporated water does not need to be incorporated later!
2. Adding the lye/water in several increments and homogenizing as you go gives better results!
3. Glycerin in large percentages may help for shaving cream in tubes but is not really necessary for lather shave cream tubs. 5%-10% may be fine but anything higher is a waste.
4. There is a high and a low in oil phases that you must be careful not to go over! #35 was too low and several of my earlier formulas were too high!
5. As with any formula there is a balance between all of your phases and finding the correct numbers for all your phases is crucial.
6. Organizing your information and collecting as much information as possible whether it is articles, formulations, information on all of your ingredients etc.
7. Learn that although sometimes no. 7 is important, there are times to throw away all of what you’ve seen or read and try things yourself to learn from your mistakes as well as your triumphs! Time to work on #26 to see what a higher amount of TEA does - then I should be finished! -
Belassi, Sorry I edited and added a bit more… anyway, Formula #35 is not nor is it ever going to be a formula but I did learn from it. Formula #26 is still a contender (please no Brando jokes) but I have a couple of things I need to figure out.
I want to try a higher percentage of TEA and I am wondering whether I should sub it for one of the other two bases and keep the same size oil phase or whether I should continue to add what would be basically TEA STEARATE to the oil/lye phases with the additional Stearic Acid which is what I have done before. I haven’t tried subbing out some of the KOH or NaOH….
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Six days later it’s now SOUP again!
A couple of days ago I tried a formula that was posted here by someone named “pepe”. It turned out to be a wet, heavy paste - nothing like I expected but with a 48.1% Water phase, I should have known better! I’ve spent the last few weeks collecting more online formulas and have a found a few with TEA in them so the picture is beginning to become more clear! Careful review of all formulas and lye, water and oil phase sizes should help me to hone in on just the right formula!