[David08848]

Sorry Pharma,

Yes, I am going to make shaving soap and the table is correct with 35 degrees Baume!  (Don’t get old!)

Yes, I could (and will) recalculate the SAP numbers for this formula and see what I come up with, but what I am looking for is what they came up with, not only the numbers but the ratio of the two hydroxides together!  (is it a 5/1 ratio or another ratio?)   Also, how large is their water phase and what is their superfat percentage?

So , it is:

1.98% (almost 2%) of NaOH at 35 degrees Baume
27.228% (almost 27.25%) of KOH at 50 degrees Baume

Sorry, I am clueless at this point but if you can assist me with the rest of the calculation, I can learn from it and others here will have this available if they need it!  I really appreciate your assistance!!!!!

[David08848]

Pharma, thanks for your input but now I’m even more confused!  I have tried to find info on Conversion Tables and Concentration Curve but didn’t find anything I understand.

I took the formula from the Thomssen 1937 book as written and put it through an Amount to Percentage Calculator.

Since the number for the oil phase total about 67% and the ratio between the two “oils” is what I need, I still need to figure out the actual amount of lye and water for the NaOH and KOH.  Does this make it easier to calculate?

[David08848]

“The Baumé scale is a pair of hydrometer scales developed by French pharmacist Antoine Baumé in 1768 to measure density of various liquids. The unit of the Baumé scale has been notated variously as degrees Baumé, B°, Bé° and simply Baumé (the accent is not always present).” from Wikipedia…

[David08848]

My understanding is that it is referring to a solution of lye and I need to determine the amount of water and the amount of lye in each of the two ingredients listed.  My keyboard doesn’t have a “degree” symbol but it is referring to Potash lye which weighs 550 kilograms and is a solution used at the amount of 50 degree Baume.  Yes, it is an old formula and if I could figure it out myself, I would but so far I haven’t been able to get it!

[David08848]

ngarayeva001 said:

It’s not very thick because there’s not much free stearic acid left. It’s all reacted with TEA. I just tested it out of curiosity because I noticed that lush use it in most of their lotions. I was rather surprised that their products don’t soap and waned to see whether I can repeat it. TEA stearate soaps less than many emulsifiers I tried.

Thanks!  This observation about the thickness or lack thereof helps to develop a vanishing style cream as well as for using Tea Stearate in shaving cream!  Some books indicate that the excess Stearic Acid will thicken the formula while others say just the opposite and will make cream or shaving cream “creamier”.  That also indicated that the superfatting of 10% in some formulas maybe beyond what it should be and something closer to 5% might be better for a shaving cream yet a vanishing cream might benefit more by raising the super fat slightly.  In your formula, you have only 1% of free Stearic Acid.  Also, knowing more about the “soaping” aspect of Tea Stearate helps!  Thanks for sharing your observations! 

[David08848]

ngarayeva001 said:

3.5% TEA to 8% stearic acid works for me but I didn’t do stability test.

Interesting, thanks!  What was the consistency of your cream?

[David08848]

Vnnil said:

You can add 10-15% of water to lower the freeze point.

Good to know!

Thanks everyone!  I put the plastic gallon container in a water bath and in no time it was liquid again!

[David08848]

Pharma, thanks for getting back to me on this.  I should have remembered another time when triethylamine and triethanolamine were confused with each other… no problem!  I have a half gallon I’m using and another 2 gallons I found after posting this which are fine but I’ll probably experiment with it to see what happens with it!  Thanks for your input!

[David08848]

https://www.chemicalbook.com/ChemicalProductProperty_EN_CB9852620.htm

“Triethanolamine appears as colorless oily liquid with the smell of ammonia. It is easy to absorb water and will turn into brown color when being exposed to the air and the light. At low temperature, it will become colorless or pale yellow cubic crystal.”

This was stored in my unheated garage several years ago…

[David08848]

Here’s a picture of an example of triethanolamine solidifying.  It certainly looks like crystallization.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Triethanolamine_solidifying.png

[David08848]

Another option might be going to a restaurant supply place and checking out professional restaurant hotplates.  There are some really good options out there for these kinds of things.  I have a hotplate that I bought in one of those places that I have had for at least 10 years!  Find a nice, big store and take a trip in to see what they have.  You may find some other things there like stainless steel tables that you can use in your “lab”!  My workroom is full of things purchased at a restaurant supply place!

[David08848]

Thanks,

I did a search and found this:

https://www.academia.edu/15820749/Acid_Soap_and_Phase_Behavior_of_Stearic_Acid_and_Triethanolamine_Stearate

This section of this study seemed to help me find my answer:

2.2. Preparation of Stearic Acid and TEA Stearate Mixtures. Stearic acid was melted at 80C in a water bath.TEA was then added slowly to the melt at 80C while being stirred. The temperature of the mix was then increased up to 95C to obtain an isotropic solution. The solution was then cooled and solidified in an ambient environment. The resulting solid was ground down to form a powder. The powder was stored in a closed container for at least 7 days before it was analyzed. This preparation method has been used previously toprepare alkali acid soap crystals.

[David08848]

It sounds great!  I hope it works well for you!  Thank you for your help!

[David08848]

@Fekher, and it lathers?

[David08848]

@Fekher  but it’s a cream not a paste, right?

[David08848]

@Fekher  Would you describe it as a “thick cream”?  When you tilt the container does it move within the container or does it stay still?  I’m looking for something that would have a pasty consistency with pearlessence that has enough body to form peaks when stirred but can easily be lathered with a brush.

[David08848]

@Fekher , just to be clear, this is a lathering shaving cream sold in a container with a lid to be used with a shaving brush, it’s not aerosol or a product dispensed in a tube.  I certainly can see the 5% to 10% superfat but I would think that at an approx. 1%/13% ratio it would be quite light and even liquid!  Thanks, I appreciate your input.

This is the typical ingredient list for the British lathering shaving creams I am trying to emulate:

Water, Stearic Acid,
Myristic Acid, Potassium Hydroxide, Coconut Acid, Glycerin, Triethanolamine,
Sodium Hydroxide, Fragrance, Methylparaben, Propylparaben.

[David08848]

Fekher said:

@David08848 i think you should improve the level of  oils and fatty acids to have bettter product.@Fek

@Fek, I am not sure I understand what you mean.  Increase the amounts of the oils and fatty acids or select different oils and fatty acids to use?  Please explain, Thank you, kind Sir!

[David08848]

@Fekher , I have been using information from many old Cosmetic Chemistry books such as Harry’s, Pouchers, Flick and many more.  They all suggest a 45% oils/10% glycerin/45% water (including bases and additives) to get the best results and I am there.  They also all suggest a 5/1 ratio of KOH to NaOH which I also use.  The amounts of these oils/fatty acids that I am using is quite similar if not identical as those in some of these formulas.  My lather is very good, skin feel improved, slip and glide also are good but it is the consistency that I seek to improve upon, so I am almost there.  Lighter and more pearlessence is what I wish to create. 

[David08848]

Bill_Toge said:

I should think it depends which fatty acid you use - if you can get hold of lauric and myristic acids, see if they create a different effect to stearic acid

Bill, 
  I didn’t see your post while I was posting but I did mention the same thing in my reply above.  I think that using a high percentage of Fatty Acids may be part of the issue.  I am using Stearic, Myristic and Coconut Oil (I made try Coconut Fatty Acids at some point).

[David08848]

Fekher said:

“@david08848 you are welcome for thickness it can be from other ingredients as high level of glycerin of using no adequat level of oils what i’am sure that you can with 10% superfat have lovely shave cream .”

It may be because I am using high percentages of fatty acids and low percentages of oils.  It may also be because of using tea stearate in my formula as well as the ratios of KOH to NaOH.  It’s a balancing act!  One version came out stiff and thick and the other came out like soup, wet and too light and the only difference was the ratio of KOH to NaOH!

[David08848]

@Gunther - thanks for the suggestion and the link for Fatty Alcohols …. I have some Stearyl Alcohol I could use! Also, I already had that link open in my browser!  A good source!

@Fekher - Some of my research suggested 3%-5% and other suggested the 5%-10%.  I recently tried the 10% but found it too stiff and thick so I will be trying the 3%-5% range next.  I’ll check out a few Vanishing Cream formulas and see where that leads me…maybe I can find one with Stearyl Alcohol!
Thanks, Gentlemen!

[David08848]

@Fekher I am thinking about a “vanishing cream” type of product to use after shaving but also for a shaving cream.  Many of the sources I have say conflicting things.  Some say 5%-10% free fatty acid will add pearlessence and softness to the cream and others say it will make the cream harder so that makes it difficult to assess. Thanks!

[David08848]

I posted this formula from Harry’s Cosmeticology 7th Version before without the procedures on the bottom which I now realize are important to follow in this type of formula!  This formula has been included in several books and online and none of those include this part! 

[David08848]

Fekher, thanks for your reply.  Your ratio works out to about 14/1 KOH to NaOH which is quite different.  It must be very creamy!