[David08848]

and as an addendum, I have a document from David Steinberg called “showletter” which I’ve had for years that contains several liquid soap formulas including “hand soap” “real soap shampoo” and all the formulas are made with fatty acids!…just sayin’

David

[David08848]

Belassi, Hi there!

As you can see here:

Ingredients: Water,
Cocos Nucifera (Coconut) Oil, Oleic
Acid, Ricinus Communis (Castor) Seed Oil, Potassium Hydroxide, PEG-150
Pentaerythrityl Tetrastearate, Glycerin, fragrance, Caprylyl Glycol, Phenoxyethanol,
Hexylene Glycol

My first oil is Coconut Oil which is in the highest percentage, then Oleic Acid is next and Castor Oil is the last because it contains Ricinoleic Acid which makes a very water soluble soap and assists with lathering.  We’re at about a 3/2/1 ratio for the three and in your post it appears that “postassium cocoate” and “potassium oleate” are good choices and as I mentioned Castor Oil makes a soap that is very water soluble!  I still wonder if the PEG-150
Pentaerythrityl Tetrastearate (Crothix) is part of the problem!

Prior to the use of a solubilizer, my fragrances and essential oils worked fine at first but over time the clouding of the top 1″ occurred and the unfortunate choice of superfatting the batch has to have played a part in all this!  I appreciate your input and I’ll take a look at your suggestions.  Thanks!

David

[David08848]

Adding to the above posted earlier today…

Last night I went into my large file for my Liquid Soap project and read through everything!  I usually try to collect as many formulations as possible but there weren’t too many.  I did have a group of sources that mentioned that keep the superfat to 0% for this type of formulation to avoid clouding and I went in thinking that I should make sure that I had done it and I found the final formula with a note on it the there was a 2% superfat for the formula!

So, this has got to be part of the problem and I will have to make a new batch to do my testing with 0% superfat in it!  Today I looked at yesterday’s sample again to find that it had developed the same problem I had originally and that was clarity that is in the bottom portion and in this one is about 2″ of cloudiness on top!

In the upper left in the picture, you can see a very large white plastic storage bin in which the remainder of the thickened and unscented batch sits!  I will be making a new formula which I adjusted last evening and working off of that!  Nothing is easy!  Back to the drawing board but at least I can address the superfat issue!

[David08848]

UPDATE!

I mixed 0.4
oz. of PEG-40 HCO paste with 0.8 oz.
Lavender EO and heated and stirred it until mixed.  I heated up 17 oz.
of liquid soap stock I have that is thickened and unscented that I heated to
120F then added the fragrance to the liquid soap.  It came out clear!

This was at 96 degrees!

I went back a few minutes later and this is what I found:

This was at 91 degrees and the bottle had begun to get
cloudy!

Yesterday, 20 hours later:

Then the whole thing got cloudy!

[David08848]

Ok, thanks.

I will take a batch that is unscented but has been thickened with PEG-150 Pentaerythrityl Tetrastearate then combine a fragrance and the PEG-40 HCO together, heat and homogenize it then add it to the heated liquid soap, stir and let it cool down and see what happens!

I am trying to figure out if PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil and PEG-150 Pentaerythrityl Tetrastearate together create a gel!

More later!

David

[David08848]

Luis, welcome back!

I don’t know the name either but it IS like what happens when you mix glycerin and water together!  To be clear in both pictures on the right are of an already  finished product from stock and nothing has been done to it and it’s there just for comparison.  It shows the problem that was in so many of the liquid soaps I have made and it is there to compare it to the left one which is one of these that I have added PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil to, after it is heated, then it is stirred and then let sit for a while so we can see what it looks like.  Basically an attempt at “rescuing” some stock and making it usable if possible.

In going back today, I see that things haven’t changed and still look like the second picture of the liquid soap on the left.  When I pick up the container the liquid soap is still cloudy and toward the bottom of the bottle it appears to be gelatinous as well!  What I get from that is that I should have realized that the PEG-40 HCO needs to be in direct contact with the fragrance to work properly and then combined together and homogenized before adding them to the product.  (It can’t hunt down bits of fragrance and work with each one of them!)

So, what I am assuming is that it makes better sense to me to combine the PEG-40 HCO with the fragrance then add them to the liquid soap.  Once they are combined, I would then add the Crothix ( PEG-150 Pentaerythrityl Tetrastearate) to thicken it.  What I don’t understand it what the one inch layer on top of the bottle consists of!  Is it a combination of fragrance and solidified soap?  I don’t know.   But I do know that once I get this figured out, I can make some new liquid soap and hopefully have no problems with it which I am eager to do and can do during this difficult time while I work at my unopened store!  I am eager to find a solution!

letsalsido, I posted a link to an article in a previous post for you that talks about liquid castile soap stating that clarity is an issue with this type of product!  Thanks again for your input!
David 

[David08848]

The PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil arrived the other day and I thought about how I should proceed and decided to try this:  I took a bottle of finished liquid soap was scented with Lemongrass Essential Oil at room temp. a few weeks ago.  I poured it into a glass measuring cup and added .4 oz. of the PEG-40 HCO.  I heated it up to about 120 degrees F and stirred.  It seemed to mix OK but I saw little “gels” throughout the mixture and did my best to stir as it cooled.  The temp dropped to about 100 degrees F and I poured it back into the container to see what happened.  Here is a pic with the new “gelled” batch on the left and the original batch on the right with the top 1″ being cloudy (with a few air bubbles) the middle section being a little cloudy and the bottom 1″ being clear!

Here is the ingredients list posted before:

Ingredients: Water, Cocos Nucifera (Coconut) Oil, Oleic Acid, Ricinus Communis (Castor) Seed Oil, Potassium Hydroxide, PEG-150 Pentaerythrityl Tetrastearate, Glycerin, fragrance, Caprylyl Glycol, Phenoxyethanol, Hexylene Glycol

Here is the procedure I use: “I saponify the oils until they become a paste and leave overnight.  The
next day the dilution water is then added and the thickener and paste
are added as well and are heated until the paste and thickener are
dissolved and the batch is left to cool.  Then
the fragrance, preservative and any percent of evaporated water are
added and stirred until smooth.”

Here are my questions:

A. Is using the PEG-40 HCO with the Crothix going to be a problem or has this occurred because of the order in which I used these in this attempt?

B.  Should I add the fragrance and PEG-40 HCO together then add the Crothix to the batch after?

Looking at it again - The sample is now 89 degrees and is evenly cloudy from top to bottom with no gel showing in it!

Thanks for reading this and thanks for any assistance you can provide!

[David08848]

letsalcido said:

Also, I didn’t know (newbie here) that liquid castile soap would turn very opaque (creamy) when cold. Is there a way to avoid this? Perhaps is the type of oils I used, and the solubility of the resulting soaps.

letsalcido, I did find a brief article about castille soap that might offer a little information:

https://vermontsoap.com/why-does-castile-liquid-soap-separate-and-get-cloudy/

Interestingly, since the temperature in my retail store has been in the low 70’s F rather than 68 degrees F the top of the soap bottle have been a little more clear… Hopefully, the sample of PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil will arrive soon!

[David08848]

Update:  I finally heard back from my chemical company and they are sending me a sample of the PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil.  They asked about my procedure and pH range and I sent them this:

“I saponify the oils until they become a paste and leave overnight.  The
next day the dilution water is then added and the thickener and paste
are added as well and are heated until the paste and thickener are
dissolved and the batch is left to cool.  Then
the fragrance, preservative and any percent of evaporated water are
added and stirred until smooth.” 

Part of the concern they had is the pH of final product and it was suggested that:

“I would start by mixing the fragrance into the
Protachem HCO-40 and adding it to alkaline water roughly the same pH as
your finished product.

Traditionally you would mix the fragrance to the
HCO-40, in a  10:1, 9:1, 8:1 etc.. Until you find the optimal ratio of
HCO-40 to fragrance that will be soluble and clear in the water /
surfactant.

Every fragrance is different, so definitely test it out lab scale before production.”

I’m curious if anyone has any observations or recommendations about this!  Thank you!

David

[David08848]

OK, Guys! 

It appears that I did get the KOH solution correct with 12.96 kg of KOH dissolved in 23.04 kg H2O which totals their 36 kg. of 38 Baume KOH!

For the NaOH either I misread the original formula or mistyped the 9 using a 0 which is right next to it on the keyboard!  Then I typed in 6.08 but listed it under H2O and listed the 12.98 under the NaOH - the calculations were correct but I put them both in the wrong places switching one for the other in my last reply!

Pharma and Imosca, I would like to thank you from the bottom of my heart for your patience, for sharing your knowledge with me and assistance in this project.  I really, really appreciate your help today!  Thank you both 100X over!

David 

[David08848]

Thanks Pharma!

I took your second line in your post and filled in the numbers for NaOH because it made more sense for ME to try it this way but I was confused about where the 0.36 came from in your KOH calculation!  So here are two versions of it with different numbers:

If your formula calls for 19 kg NaOH of 38 Bé, multiply 19
kg by 0.32 (or 32%/100) to get 12.92
kg pure NaOH and (obviously) 6.08 kg water.

 

or should this read:

 

If your formula calls for 19 kg NaOH of 38 Bé, multiply 19
kg by 0.10(or 10%/100) to get 1.9 kg
pure NaOH and (obviously) 17.1 kg water.

I’m thinking that the second one is more likely correct!  What do you think?

David

[David08848]

Imosca,

My problem is that I don’t understand the terminology you are using.  I am looking at the chart for KOH on page 26.  I followed the Degrees Baume down to 38.07 then over to the left and under %KOH I see the number 36.  The formula shows 38 Baume and the percentage used in the formula is 36.  Your calculation then says to multiply the weight of the solution X the % of concentration/100.  The formula is written in KG and I see Grams of KOH in Liter but I don’t know if that is the number I need for the %_Concentration because I am not sure what that term means.  Once I understand the terminology used in this chart and how one of these amounts is calculated I can then use these two documents to check out formula 1 AND Formula 2 and any other old formula I need to check and I can stop pestering you and everyone else here!  LOL
I know all the soap calculators and fully understand the soapmaking process so fortunately that is not an issue and is part of my my business and knowing the relationship between the KOH and NaOH in any duel lye formula will help to show me the possible results compared to other formulas to know which is the best direction to take.  Thanks again!

[David08848]

Imosca,  I appreciate your input.  I am usually a bit long-winded so I tried to make it brief but perhaps I was too brief.  I am trying to compare this shaving soap formula from 1933 with others from the same time period.

I don’t have a cosmetic chemistry background but I have learned that it is a valuable tool to have and approach to use!  In making these comparisons with other formulas I need to be able to change it from a KOH “solution” with water and an NaOH “solution” with water to the actual amount of KOH, NaOH and H2O that are in this formula so that I can compare the RATIO of NaOH to KOH and know the size of the water phase as well.  I don’t have the knowledge to calculate it myself correctly so I just need some help from someone who knows all the details about calculating this part of the old formula that uses Baume.  I have found it the past that often there are similarities in various formulations from this era and that has been very helpful in finding the correct formula that will be easy to make and easy to perfect.  Thanks again!

[David08848]

Update:  I never heard back from the company which is not a surprise with the current situation we are going through but I did find an MSDS sheet that gave a range of 0.5%-5.0% as the suggested usage range.  I did find a couple of gallons of PEG-30 castor oil in my workroom but they weren’t hydrogenated so that doesn’t help.  Most chemical companies will give you a quote for a particular product but they don’t list the price online and I doubt that I would hear back from them anyway right now!  The only other option might be a reseller but there were two examples I could find online.  One was 8.4 lbs. for $81.40 and the other was $110.00 for around the same size which sounds a little high to me.  Does anyone have a comparison price from a wholesaler they know for PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil?  That would be helpful!  David

[David08848]

I saw that the PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil was “liquid to semi-solid” and the PEG-25 is listed as liquid so I’m getting the picture and I can see that most like the PEG-40 should be able to perform in the way that is needed… back to research!

[David08848]

So, as an update, I’ve been reading up on PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil and I went to the Protameen site, a local NJ company I’ve done business with for many years, and I see that they not only have PEG-40 but also 16, 25, 50 and 60!  I’ve only been looking up the 40 so I guess I can check with them and see what they suggest and do some research on the other options. I should have figured that it would come in various forms!  Life is a learning experience! 🙂

[David08848]

Luis,  You brought up an interesting point.  I remember seeing a machine that “created” shaving cream back in the late 1960’s in my barber shop.  In that instance there wouldn’t be any contact from one client to the next but with a hard soap there would be.  I would think that there are rules, from state to state that regulated usage of shaving soap, cream, shaving brushes and, of course, razors.  Razors can easily be cleaned and disinfected and I remember “Fitzi”, our barber, cleaning and honing the single edge razor before using it to shave my neck at the end of the haircut.  It would be interesting to know what the rules are and why some of these guys feel it is OK to “share” their used products with other people!  With what is going on right now in our world, I would hope that “sharing” these kinds of things will end!  Thanks again for your input and putting this aspect out there so we can see what “logic” they may have been using to come to the idea that this is an “OK” thing to do when in reality someone could possible lose their life from “sharing” something like this!

[David08848]

Luis, I really appreciate your input!  Your mention of PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil  rang a bell so I am starting to do some research and hopefully will find this available with one of the chemical companies here in New Jersey and New York so I can find a source and give it a try!  (I might even have a sample of it somewhere!  Also, I use Castor Oil in my formulation!)  

I have found that in general liquid soaps can become cloudy on their own without a solubilizer when the temperature drops.  In my retail store here in New Jersey I have noticed differences in my liquid soap when the temperature starts rising in the Spring and lowering in the Fall.  They tend to stay clear in the Summer with a rise in temperature but I need them to be clear year round!
It’s helpful to hear your test experiences and with the small amount of experimentation I have had the time to do so far with the Polysorbate 20, I only have gotten small changes in the product. (and I wondered how much more I would have to add!)

Without knowing the exact ingredients you are using in a liquid “Castile” soap it is hard to say.  This may have already been mentioned but liquid soap seems to perform the best when a zero percent superfat is used.  I did some research here and found a post about making liquid soap and the guy who was working on it said that he only used a 5% superfat and no one here picked up on it and mentioned that he might make out better with a zero superfat!  Sometimes, people see projects like these as being easy and “not rocket science” but this isn’t always the case in my experience.  I have greatly appreciated your input and sharing, Luis!  Thank you!

[David08848]

letsalico, Thanks for the clarification.  For the moment, I will stick with the PEG-150 Pentaerythrityl Tetrastearate because it has worked well and I still have a quantity of it to use up before I consider using salt but it is good to know the procedure!  I was planning on making a large batch then putting together very small containers to test with each scent I am considering using sort of like what is described in that link that alchemist01 posted from that Perry Romanowski guy!  (He looks so familiar!)  From my experience, I have found that fragrance oils can cause the same cloudiness as essential oils so if I can try each one with Polysorbate 20 in similar increments then record the results as suggested hopefully I can make sure that all scents have the correct percentages and give the best clarity possible!  Thanks, all of you!  I appreciate your help!  Looks like I’ll be alone in my store over the next few weeks so that will give me the time to try all of this!

[David08848]

letsalcido,

Just to recap, you showed two
examples of your liquid soap in which you said on March 20th you used
Polysorbate 20 to clarify them successfully and those are the pictures of the
two green bottles that are above your comments about them?  The first one
came out fine and to the second on you added salt which broke the
emulsion.  On March 21st you said the two bottles of green you “fixed
them separately with slightly different amounts of sodium”.  So I am
a bit confused.  Are you saying that the salt in small amounts can thicken
a liquid soap and also give them some clarity and in larger amounts can either
brake the emulsion and or cause clouding of the mixture?

So does this mean that using salt in
proper percentages can clarify and thicken a soap based liquid soap?  What
about the Polysorbate 20?  Is that for clarification only or can that add
to the thickening as well if not used in too high a percentage?  I just
want to make sure I understand this before I go any further.  Thanks for
your help!

David

 

[David08848]

letsalcido, Thanks for the clarification!  Your putting forth the use of salt is making me think about it.  Glad you mentioned you used a solution.  Do you have a suggested range I might want to try or a suggested solution strength range?   I have been looking at posts here this afternoon and evening about liquid soap and found a post of mine regarding my procedure from 2016! 

“Basically, my liquid soap is made by heating the oils, mixing the KOH
with water in a plastic bucket until combined then adding the solution
to the oils and stirring until saponified and it turns to a paste.  For
me that takes about 10 minutes.  It is then covered and left overnight
to make sure the saponification process is complete.  The next day the
paste is weighed to determine the amount of H2O to be added, water is
then heated then my thickener is added and stirred until dissolved, then
the soap paste is added to the heated water and stirred then left to be
dissolved by the heated water then covered. (glycerin can be added at
this point if used).  Usually the by the next day the paste is totally
dissolved and the fragrance can be added and it is weighed again to see
if H2O needs to be added to bring it to the proper concentration
reflected in the formula and it is then ready to bottle.  For this type
of production a mixer is not needed.”

What concerns me is taking whatever I feel is right to correct this esthetic of my liquid soap and applying it to a large batch and being able to make it work!  I’m open for suggestions, my friend!

David

[David08848]

letsalcido,  Your first two pics show one on the left side which looks quite nice to me even though you list them as “failed batches”!  The second pic shows two batches that are very similar to mine in color and they are fairly clear but not 100%.  The third attempt of mine yesterday on that one batch (that was made by adding fragrance oil to a “cold” batch that was 100% clear before adding the fragrance) had “cloudiness” at the top but now has it throughout the bottle but less dense and does look a little better today but I only put in the Polysorbate 20 in multiple drops each time just to see what would happen! 
Mike, I think we are going for different markets so my customers are more concerned about consistency and skin feel which is why I chose the PEG-150 Pentaerythrityl Tetrastearate which has worked quite well and so far hasn’t been affected by the addition of Polysorbate 20.  As letsalcido said, it is going to be something I will have to make work in whatever way I can find from batch to batch and fragrance to fragrance.  Letsalcido also mentioned using sodium (I am assuming as a thickener) but is one option that didn’t appeal to me. 
I would like to keep my products “all natural”  but that option isn’t always the best option for the customers desire for just the right consistency and skin feel!  Interesting hearing about both of your production techniques.  I make mine early in the day, giving it some chance to sit in it’s gel state which occurs fairly quickly with a fatty acid in the formula then it left to sit for a bit then water is added, left overnight then homogenized the next day with the addition of fragrance or essential oils.  Hopefully I can work this out and get that one “esthetic” part of the formulation correctly for a product that already does quite well as it is!  Thanks again, guys for your assistance! Letsalcido, nice earrings! 

[David08848]

WOW!  Thanks for all of this “info” and observations and pictures!  It is becoming a bit more “clear” (pun intended) as to what all of the aspects are to take into consideration!   I am using essentials oils and also using fragrance oils and sometimes a combination of both so that should play a role in all of this as well!  I’m going to go over what you posted and reply when I have time to “absorb” (pun intended) all of this!  Seriously, I really appreciate your input and I am grateful for your help!   David

[David08848]

I have been working with a bottle of liquid soap and adding small amounts of Polysorbate 20 to the batch and stirring it then letting it settle.  The first time I used a small amount, the second a bit larger and more today.  The cloudiness seems to be all over now but much finer than before and the top half inch of cloudiness is there but less obvious.  After today’s addition, I hope I get better results but I won’t know until tomorrow.  I’ve been searching for more info on the use of Polysorbate 20 (and 80) and have found a few things but most are from soapmaking boards or blogs.  I would prefer to get my info from a cosmetic chemist who works with formulas and has the background and knowledge needed to use the best approach in making any of my products.  The late Maurice Hevey was the first chemist I encountered on a message board and I quickly saw the benefits then Perry came along and I eagerly jumped aboard the ship!  If any of you have any input that are willing to share I would greatly appreciate it.  I want to make the best product I can! 

[David08848]

Perry et al, Thanks for answering and for sharing your opinions and knowledge.  Perry, I am not surprised at your answer and what you shared is what I was thinking was so about this issue.  Shaving Message Boards often enable sharing used items and frankly, from the beginning I found the idea rather disgusting.  Since there are questions about what it sold, I will post a link to the site for you to see for yourself.  Perry, if you have any issues with the link please feel free to remove it.  I think it is a good idea to see what is going on in today’s market which is why I asked and why I am posting it.  

https://murphyandmcneil.com/#