[David08848]

Belassi,
Sorry I didn’t see this!  I an familiar with this formula as it is part of my 600+ page research document on Shaving Cream.  Your post calls it “soap” as some guys do call shaving cream.  I have never seen a formula like this turn into a separated version like in your photo.  The only ingredient which is usually not in this and other similar formulas is the Polyquaternium 7 which is usually clear in color.  I see TEA listed at 2.8% and I assume you are using triethanolamine and not TEA Stearate?  I have seen 1% TEA Stearate and as high as 3% in some formulas but never 2.8% triethanolamine.  I did a batch with 4.5% Tea Stearate but it was sort of wet and pasty which didn’t work well for me.  Temperature is so important in a product like this and getting it up into the 160-170 F degree range isn’t not always easy and keeping it up there can be a problem as well!  How did things go with this project?
David

[David08848]

ngarayeva001 said:

If you are making a lotion you can just add TEA to the water phase and Stearic Acid to the oil phase.

Thanks again!  I think you made a point that I didn’t get at the time.  Although you can make a lotion by heating up the stearic acid and adding the triethanolamine to it until it becomes saponified and hard then either grind it into a powder to use or melt the tea stearate in the oil phase until is has dissolved. 

However, the TEA can be put into the water phase which is then added into the oil phase containing stearic acid and processed until it is saponified as you would to create a lotion or vanishing cream.  For a shaving cream it would require that this would be your first phase and the rest of the oils and other fatty acids could be added to it and lye’s to your water and stir and combine to create a second phase to complete the process after being added to the first phase and homogenized!  Seems like an easier option, thanks ngarayeva001!

[David08848]

Both Bill and Belassi made some good observations which I noticed looking back at this for one more attempt at making improvements on my formula!  Looking back at the pictures I posted I now see a few tiny lumps in the first one and can see more clearly some inconsistencies in the second!   Belassi, makes a good observation about the changes in his attempt over a few days.  His attempt was using only KOH and I am seeing the reason for the use of NaOH (and Tea Stearate in small amounts) in, perhaps, creating a more stable consistency?! 
  
Bills observations about the “incomplete soap formation”, makes me think that being consistent with the procedures and with the temperatures as well as the process being made more consistent as a whole, will create a more stable soap.  Yes, I will have to be more careful about the temps and the procedures to get a more consistent result!

For me the “superfat” amount needs some more attention as I have found a couple of formulas, one having 0% superfat and the other had 10% superfat and both weren’t too bad!  So which is it?  I was made aware in a recent post that unsaponified stearic acid in a product can make that product too firm!  Also the ratio of NaOH to KOH needs a review.  It’s tough when you have Oil, Water, Lye, Tea Stearate, Glycerin etc. and have to play a balancing act between all of them!

[David08848]

chemicalmatt said:

Yes, it will. You are correct.

OK!  That is valuable information!  Thank so much for your help, chemicalmatt!
David 

[David08848]

So this is what I have found so far online:

“Stearic Acid

Stearic acid is the
saturated fatty acid or waxy solid used as a hardening agent or
lubricant. This acid helps make skincare creams and lotions “spreadable.” This
ingredient can be derived from animals or vegetables. Stearic acid can be found
in many vegetable fats, such as coconut or cocoa butter.”

I am wondering if the excess of 10% unsaponified Stearic Acid is what is making the formula too stiff and heavy?

Thanks!
David

[David08848]

Thanks for your replies.  I did notice and VENZEN brand name and the Estee Lauder looked interesting…with 51 ingredients!

[David08848]

I haven’t encountered anything like this before and I guess that there could be a few products out there that are fakes.  I was just wondering if it was some sort of “vanishing cream” like existed a hundred years ago.  Those were simple formulas and I think they did what they set out to do without all the bells and whistles that are in modern day formulas and I prefer to keep my formulas as simple as possible, as long as they can perform properly.  Thanks for your input!
David

[David08848]

Thank Dr_Sara, I have been looking at quite a few brands online and had a difficult time finding what I need for the price I need to pay. I have even done a major search today on Amazon for companies all over the world selling though Amazon and found a few options but nothing perfect yet! I have found that there is a “5 oz. size” metal container that is being sold by some companies that is somewhere around 3.3 inches diameter and about 1.5″ height which I think would work but the price on some is OK but others have limited number for sale and I’m looking for a vendor that will always be there and that isn’t always the case on Amazon.  These containers are not often used for a “full sized” object and only one description listed using it for “shaving soap”!  I’ll keep looking!

[David08848]

The shaving soap puck is exactly 3″ diameter X 1″ in height.  From what I have seen most containers taper in at the neck (top) and the photos show them to be smaller at the top than at the middle to bottom of the container.
Thanks!

[David08848]

Well, I have spent lots of time trying to find just the right container and was going to settle on one I found from Papermart until I decided to try and verify the diameter of the inside of the top of the container and the diameter of the lower portion of the container.  The photo clearly shows that the base of the container starts to taper in at the top where the screw on top begins therefore the diameter of the inside of the very top of the container is smaller than the lower inside portion of the container but their rep claims that they are the exact same size.  Since they are not a packaging company they are probably reading the info off a spec sheet from their supplier and have never even handled one of these themselves and I don’t trust their answer!  From what I’ve seen lots of other companies don’t give this measurement either!  I can’t buy a container because the bottom measurement is big enough only to find that the 3″ puck of soap won’t fit into the top of the container!

[David08848]

Perhaps it is the accuracy of the pH strips…

https://aperainst.com/blog/why-choose-a-ph-meter-instead-of-a-ph-test-strip/

Something to think about…

[David08848]

Boy, do you have that one right!  It sometimes seems that the packaging is the most important thing about the product!  There are those who review shaving products on the online message boards praising the packaging and many are impressed with fancy brand names but when they get to the actual product, their actual replies indicate that the product is OK and it become obvious that the name and presentation is more important than the actual product!  I do my best to make the best product I can, offer lots of fragrance options and all they like to do is find fault with the packaging and they are getting the product at a much lower price point than the fancy stuff!  Anyway,  I’m still considering a “rust resistant” container.  I thought about glass and then I thought about shipping a glass container… ????.  I currently use kraft paper fold-able boxes for soap and I could have some of them made to size and square with no openings on the top but with two side openings and put a puck inside with round pleated paper around it with a gold seal but even a manual pleated paper machine is expensive!  I want to be unique but I don’t need to spend hundred or thousands of dollars to get there! 😉

[David08848]

Cafe33,

You made a good point about the rusting of tin!  I went to a shaving message board and found posts from several people who have experienced the rusting of their tin containers (which many of them keep and use for years!) PaperMart seemed to be the only one out there offering a “rust resistant” coating on one of theirs but they don’t offer a size that I could use… packaging products can be a real roller coaster ride at times!   :smirk:

[David08848]

Again, I appreciate all of these
responses. 

Uline has tin plated “metal”
with an 8 oz. container that is 3 1/8 x 2″ - a little tall but
possible.

The Chinese products may have some
options but typically I buy US made whenever possible.  It is good to know about the rusting but I don’t know if would apply too much to this kind of product?

Mountain Rose Herbs is a familiar name
going back quite a long time.  The three smaller sizes of theirs are made
in China and have an indentation in the cap but the largest one, has a “1
1/16” height, 3 1/16” in diameter and can accommodate a 3” diameter circle
label”and has a flat top with no
indentation and is made in the US.  The given diameter of this container being 3 1/16″ has got to be for the base and the lid that slides on top of the base has to be even larger than that!  This probably applies to almost all of these but the companies aren’t going to list it that way!

Paper Mart has a 1 1/4 ”/3 1/8 ” and 4 oz which in
small quantities is over $1.00

My current plastic container is about 1 7/8″ tall and about 2 3/8″ diameter with about 5/8″ headspace above the shaving soap puck.  The problem with it is it has a bottom that is curved upward and the puck rocks back and forth on it.  There seems to be all kinds of shaving soap packaging out there, some are just used as a package and the bar is removed and put into another container to use and others are used as they are, to lather the puck.  It is difficult to know which way to go with this.  Those who put this in a container and use it from that can put it back in this container to store and use it to travel with.  Those who use it to shave out of can just leave it there!

Will check some of the older samples and remeasure their size and some may shrink a little.  I wish I could find a manual puck press to make them all the exact same size!  It’s is good to know what the options are and maybe I can find a 3.5″ x 1.5″ tin… who knows!  Thanks again to all of you for your assistance!  I appreciate it!

[David08848]

Unfortunately, Specialty Bottle is only selling to current registered customers right now.  Also, I texted them about the measurements of the 4 oz. container and found out that the measurements of 3.3″ width and 1.1″ height are “outside measurements” not inside measurements so I don’t think this size would have worked for the 3″ X 1″ shaving soap!

[David08848]

WOW!  You are amazing!  Both look like possibilities so I’ll have to order a sample to make sure!  I had seen the specialty bottle option but wasn’t sure about it being a “slip cover” and for some reason, I hadn’t seen anything from SKS and they didn’t show up on any searches and I didn’t remember them even though I have purchased from them before! 

I am assuming that the 3.23″ measurement on the SKS bottle is for the container and since the lid “slips” onto it, it has to be wider than the indentation in the lid so hopefully it will be at least 3″ wide or slightly larger than that which should work!  The pucks are slightly under 3″ in diameter and the height is less than 1″ for the pucks.  The prices are quite good for these too! 

Thanks so much for your help on this!  I really appreciate it!

[David08848]

I’m in New Jersey here in the U.S.  I’m looking at the site now but haven’t found any international options yet.  The shipping rates might be a problem there but I’ll check that out.  Thanks again!

[David08848]

I did see these and this is the type of container I am seeking.  Unfortunately, I have a previously printed label that has to fit on the top of the screw top but it is exactly 3″ in diameter and the screw top has an indentation that is smaller in width so this won’t work.  A completely flat top might work or a container that is slightly larger in diameter like 3.3″ or 3.4″ for my label and my 3″ shaving soap puck.  (also it could be tin or aluminum or a combination of both!)
Thanks for your input, I appreciate it!  

[David08848]

Hi! Thanks for following and sharing! If I did the calculations correctly, that would be about $2.15/lb. for the Coconut Fatty Acid with a minimum of 2.2 lbs. purchase. but coming from Mexico what would the shipping costs be?

I heard back from deWolf in Rhode Island (near where I grew up) and they have a minimum of a 55 gallon drum and others I contacted didn’t reply! What company in Mexico would this be so I could check it out?

I redid the formula for the liquid soap and made sure there was no superfat included in it this time! During this difficult time, I thought it was a good idea to work on all reformulation projects, completed the Shaving Cream final formulation a few weeks ago, the liquid soap formula last week and yesterday the Shaving Soap formulation so I will be trying all three soon and trying the PEG-25 Hydrogenated Castor Oil sample I received last week with one of the sample batches and see how it goes with the new liquid soap formulation. Thanks for your input, Cafe33!
David - Everyone, please stay well!

[David08848]

Luis, thanks for getting back to me on these.  
1. Recalculated SAP values for formula last night - it is actually a 4% superfat!  (rolls eyes   )  have changed formula to 0% superfat.
2.  Did find a reseller for PEG-120 Methyl Glucose Dioleate version: PEG-120 Methyl Glucose Trioleate (and) Propylene Glycol (and) Water - 4 lbs = $125!   😮 - still looking…
3. I have to take care of superfat first then go onto trying PEG-40 HCO again. 
4.  PEG-25 HCO and maybe blends of this and the other two but I have to check out the information and decide where to go with this.
5.  In soapmaking arenas an “oil phase” IS the percentage of the oils in the formula but a “soap phase” is the amount of oils and the amount of hydroxides together… just different terminology and a different approach.

In the soapmaking “arena” liquid soaps are made with a larger percentage of water and “cooked” (cringe! ) for at least 3 hours until it goes through several “phases”.  I don’t use that approach and it takes me about 10 minutes using about a 66% of water to process the 33% of oils + lye then it is left overnight to finish saponification.  The actually oil percentage in the finished formula is 24% and the water phase includes water and glycerin at a little bit over 60%.

Since two fragrances, Musk and Rose do not show this problem at all, points a finger toward fragrance as being a major part of the issue but I think the “unsaponfied oils floating around” because of the superfatting are “interacting” in some way with the rest of the essential oils/fragrances oil making it easier for this problem to occur so I need to take care of the superfat first!  A bucket of Oleic Acid arrived yesterday so I can get going on this soon then move onto the next step!  My only other concern is the ratio of oils and at a 3/2/1 ratio of Coconut /Oleic/Castor may need to be looked at but I do have several old formulas with just Coconut oil in them or combos with Coconut Oil being the higher percentage over other oils such as Oleic Acid and Soy.  Anyway, I would rather go into something with as much knowledge as possible and having done as much research as possible!  You gotta know all the players!  Thanks, Luis and everyone!

David

[David08848]

Let me make it simple:  
1.  Formula had a 2% superfat instead of recommended 0%
2.  Crothix may be the problem - perhaps use PEG-150 Distearate
3. trying of a blend of Polysorbate 20 and PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil might be an option
4.  try PEG-25 Hydrogenated Castor Oil which has a lower meltpoint
5. the size of my oil/soap phase might be too large at 24%/29.5%

Comments?
Thx, D

[David08848]

The ebay one lists itself as “Ethoxylated” as does the ulprospector one but the other two don’t.

https://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-ethoxylation.htm

[David08848]

Luis,  a quick question!  What temperature is it in the room that you saw, worked with or touched the PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil?

My workroom is between 68 and 72 degrees Fahrenheit!  Many of the online pictures I have seen of PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil show it as a white paste!  I just checked back at my email and PEG-20 Hydrogenated Castor Oil and it is described as “a clear liquid at Room Temp and a little below” which makes more sense to me since it would have a lower viscosity?

David

[David08848]

Luis, I appreciate your input.  In my
business I create handcrafted soap, liquid soap but I also make men’s shaving
cream and men’s shaving soap which are made with fatty acids such as Stearic,
Palmitic, Myristic and Oleic and I have done lots of research to learn about
the fatty acid structure from low to high percentage to know exactly what to
use to create the products I want and need including soap from the beginning of
this project in 1998, but I don’t know everything.  My goal is to create products as simple as
possible and as close to nature as possible but use ingredients that give the
product the characteristics that the customers want.  I do wish to continue to make a soap-based
liquid soap and I am willing to include ingredients that will create the best
product possible even if some of them may not be considered natural.  If that means using Fatty Acids in a liquid
soap formula, I am OK with that as I already use Oleic Acid as the middle of
the three I have selected and I can also use coconut fatty acid in my shaving
cream and my shaving soap so it would serve 3 purposes!  But I have already found that finding a supplier,
or one that is willing to sell the quantities I need is not easy!  If[DP1]  it
means I have to use a not completely natural solubilizer to create the best-looking
product then I don’t have a problem with that either.

Yes, I am aware of the differences in the
various oils out there but I have been fortunate in my choices of suppliers and
I have not found any raw materials that don’t behave the way that they should
even though there may be slight differences from lot to lot.  Fatty Acids must meet the supplier’s requirements
and be within the correct range and I believe they can create a much more
consistent product than oils can.

As far as the addition of PEG-40 Hydrogenated
Castor Oil is concerned, it is a paste at room temperature and has the consistency
of a “Vaseline” type substance.  The meltpoint
of it is about 85-86 degrees F and my stock liquid soap has been around 70 degrees.
I heated the PEG-40 HCO to around 100 degrees to be able to incorporate
Lavender EO into it and I heated up the soap stock to around 100 degrees. After
stirring the EO/solidifier together and adding it to the top of the liquid soap
it sat on the top and had to slowly be stirred into the batch, which needed to
be reheated a little, to get it to completely mix into it.  

1. So, for me, I am still unsure what exactly
is causing the problem but I am aware of one possible problem and that is that
in my formula, I have a 2% “superfat”, yet in my research I have lots of
sources that indicate the a 0% superfat is what should be used in a liquid soap
because of the “clouding” that can occur if any superfatting is used!  So I will correct that issue!

2.  I have
recently heard that there are some “inconsistencies” in using “Crothix” PEG-150
Pentaerythrityl Tetrastearate as far as variations in results so I am looking
into using PEG-150 Distearate.  I am still
wondering if Crothix might be part of the problem.

3.  It was
also suggested that I might wish to try a blend of Polysorbate 20 and PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil

4.  It
was recommended that I might wish to try PEG-25 Hydrogenated Castor Oil which
has a lower meltpoint so I will be giving that a try.

5. My last concern is whether the size of my oil/soap
phase might be too large at 24%/29.5% and this may be what you are
referring to in your last suggestion in your mention of “free water” and adding
a percentage of water that may aid if achieving a clear batch.

As you pointed out, creating an “all natural” type
of may not be easy and there are those who send out warnings about that
temperature can change their product and that just goes along with the territory.  Also, testing the solubilizers without
a fragrance might be a good idea as well and I had thought of that briefly but
it stuck more in my head after you said that! 
Right now, I’m happy to look at all aspects, then narrow it down and
try, what I think are the right ones.  If
I succeed then, great!  If not, I’ll know
I did my best and that is all that matters to me!

I appreciate your input, ideas and intelligence
and am grateful that everyone here was willing to share their idea, thoughts
and approaches!  Thank you one and
all!  Thanks Luis!

David

---

[David08848]

As I said above, Belassi

My first oil in my formula is Coconut Oil which is in the highest percentage, then Oleic Acid is next and Castor Oil
is the last because it contains Ricinoleic Acid which makes a very
water soluble soap and assists with lathering.  We’re at about a 3/2/1
ratio for the three and in your post it appears that “postassium
cocoate” and “potassium oleate” are good choices and as I mentioned
Castor Oil makes a soap that is very water soluble!  I still wonder if
the PEG-150
Pentaerythrityl Tetrastearate (Crothix) is part of the problem!

I spent the last hour trying to find a supplier for Coconut Fatty Acids which is much more difficult than I expected!  I saw listings that showed it to be a liquid and several pictures of liquids of various colors - golden to darker shades - and one from Acme-Hardesty for a 5 gallon pail  for $158.00 which was the only listing in the US!  The rest were from India and some listed it as “distilled”!

If anyone has any US sources in the North East of the US, I would appreciate hearing about them!  Thanks!

David