[David08848]

http://www.lipstickalley.com/showthread.php/577514-White-people-with-kinky-hair/page4

Several pictures are worth a thousand words…

[David08848]

Yes, I have seen white people with kinky curly hair including the gentleman I mentioned.  If I were going after that market, I would include anyone of any nationality and race with that kind of hair so that I didn’t limit my customer base.  My point was that everyone who comes here with a cosmetic chemistry background has the knowledge and experience to formulate a product for the finest silky hair to the thickest kinky hair and anywhere in between.  Rather than go after an “ethnic” approach which assumes that everyone of that ethnicity has the same hair or skin characteristics one could approach it with the characteristics themselves regardless of ethnicity.  Once you state what kind of hair or skin requirements you are formulating for it then becomes much easier for the chemist to create their formula and to assist you in creating yours!

[David08848]

Coconut Oil should only be used in the 20-25% range because of the drying/irritation it can cause.   A larger percentage of Palm oil was a good suggestion and an even larger percentage of an oil such as olive with a high percentage of oleic acid would be a good choice as well.  You need to reformulate to deal with this rancidity problem and not produce as much if it is going to sit in a warehouse for months!

[David08848]

Within the white race are many people with different hair and skin types just as there are in the black community so to lump everyone into one market seems a bit unfair and unrealistic.  If you are looking to serve a particular segment of “African people” then you are leaving out the rest who don’t have those particular hair and skin characteristics.  You are also limiting your product to one market thereby potentially loosing customers.  I vaguely remember 35-40 years ago talking with a man who happened to be white but had very curly hair and had great difficulty caring for it so I suggested that he try a particular brand of an African American hair product.  He thanked me later as he did what I had suggested and it worked quite well for him!

There are many talented men and women who come here and answer questions and whose knowledge could assist anyone no matter what their race, gender, ethnic background or even sexual preference.  It’s all about cosmetic chemistry here and what is needed to give a certain characteristic to a product.  They have the knowledge and background and we are grateful that they come here to help do this!  But is it all down to one thing and that is the ingredients!
 
Cosmetic chemicals can be formulated to work for everyone no matter what their race, gender, ethnic background or even sexual preference might be!

[David08848]

Belassi picked up on it when he said “If you use fatty acids (e.g. oleic acid) it takes seconds
rather than minutes. Three hours is ridiculous.”

You could also use an oil that is high in a particular fatty acid such as olive oil which is typically 80-82% Oleic Acid… hint, hint…

Also, your lye solution is probably too weak!   So many of the books, articles call for relatively weak lye solutions because so many homecrafters are afraid of working with a stronger solution hence the three hours (they say cooking!,,Ugh!) processing time!  hint, hint…

Dilution of paste goes pretty quickly in hot water! hint, hint…

Why the heck do you need a mixer?  I big paddle from a restaurant supply place will do the trick and it is cheap!  Pretty much all of what I use in my 800 sq. ft. workspace is restaurant equipment from a restaurant supply place!  I bought the heater from soapequipment.com and it sits on a stainless steel table unused…

Best of luck!

[David08848]

Thanks, Gentlemen!  Sorry for the delay in replying…

Bob, I appreciate your recommendation of those three waxes.  I do have sources for all three and it helps to know that these should work as I am using a “unpetroleum jelly” that Strahl & Pitsch makes which contains some of these already and resellers sell all three of the waxes online so that makes it easier in the beginning of a new project before you need to go to someone else to source them!

Bill, that comparison is very helpful and I will take that into consideration when I make my first attempts!

luis, I always have Stearic Acid onhand for my shaving cream so those 50 lb. bags will come in handy and I appreciate hearing that Stearic Acid could be a contender!  (sorry Marlon!)

I have also seen Octyldodecanol.  Is anyone here familiar with it here?  Would it work as a sub for Mineral oil?

Thanks all for your insights!
David

[David08848]

In many cases, an acid is added to lower pH to a more neutral level, but sometimes in soapmaking  a soaps pH is lowered to a less alkaline level to make it more skin friendly but not lowered so much that it will cause oils to precipitate out of the product.  Also, some soapmakers will add more lye in the process to make sure a product is fully saponified and then adjust the pH later.  Make sense, Belassi et al?

[David08848]

You’ve got several peoples attention here so you might as well just start asking questions!  Don’t be afraid of how “basic” a question might be or be afraid of making a mistake.  The more questions you ask the more chance you have of learning something!  You can also do searches here on certain topics and often you may find an answer to a question without even having to ask!  You also may start to see patterns in the responses and be able to take those ideas in and apply them to what you are doing.  Just start with the basics and go from there!  If  you don’t ask you won’t learn!

[David08848]

Yes, David, I know that but it has a certain reputation among certain people.  I don’t make any attempts to create “all-natural” products but I am often asked by customers in my store if this or that is “all-natural”!  I do make an effort to create products with short ingredients lists and products that contain ingredients that are familiar to people and many are ingredients that are edible.  That being said, I did start to do a search on here for Mineral oil and found some useful information.  Not so much on Paraffin and that would be something I would like to replace with a wax easily and readily found in nature and familiar to one and all.  Considering my customer base, I think that would work better for me!

[David08848]

I was advised by more than one cosmetic chemist to use “Dawn” dishwashing liquid.  It seems that it is used in many cosmetic labs for that purpose!

[David08848]

I have read most of your responses and the first thing I noticed was that you mentioned:

“The consistency of our soap is not very even, and in general it doesn’t seem as ‘polished’ as a mass market body wash.”

Perhaps you may wish to work on your formula and techniques before you try a production batch?

Basically, my liquid soap is made by heating the oils, mixing the KOH with water in a plastic bucket until combined then adding the solution to the oils and stirring until saponified and it turns to a paste.  For me that takes about 10 minutes.  It is then covered and left overnight to make sure the saponification process is complete.  The next day the paste is weighed to determine the amount of H2O to be added, water is then heated then my thickener is added and stirred until dissolved, then the soap paste is added to the heated water and stirred then left to be dissolved by the heated water then covered. (glycerin can be added at this point if used).  Usually the by the next day the paste is totally dissolved and the fragrance can be added and it is weighed again to see if H2O needs to be added to bring it to the proper concentration reflected in the formula and it is then ready to bottle.  For this type of production a mixer is not needed.

[David08848]

My saponification takes about 10 minutes!  I use a strong lye solution and I only need to stir for about 10 minutes, then it becomes paste, is stirred again and left overnight and weighed then diluted the next day then thickener and fragrance are added.  These are production size batches I am making.  Your problem is that you want to try a weaker lye solution when you should be using a stronger one.  Time to abandon that concept as it isn’t going to work.  Also, Bobz last suggestion is a good one!

[David08848]

Thanks, Mike and Christopher!

I checked back in my workroom and I do have a few bottles of oils that are marked both “FCO” and “C/C Trig.”!  However, when I go the company’s site I only find “FCO” listed and it is also called “MTC OIL”.  So, I’m not exactly sure that the bottle I have are!

Christopher,

Thanks for that link!  That covers the topic pretty well and is quite clear as to what the difference is!  I appreciate you sharing it!

Thanks, guys!
David

[David08848]

You did not state exactly what your product is but by the ingredients list and methods I am assuming it is a liquid soap. 

Making a paste and then diluting it is a typical method used for this kind of product.  If you were to use the full amount of water from the beginning then your lye solution is not strong enough to make saponification happen quickly enough and completely.

 Water-loss is also typical in this kind of process.  You indicate that you dilute your paste at a 1:1 ratio.  Have you added back the H2O that evaporate during your first phase?  If not then that may be a reason that your product doesn’t come out the same each time.

The process that you hope to use isn’t going to work for you.  You still must make paste first to make sure your saponification is complete, take account of the lost water and replace the lost water during the dilution phase.  By the way, your paste should sit for a while to also assure that your saponification is complete.

I hope this helps!  Now I’m going back to bottling my liquid soap!

[David08848]

Yes, apparently FCO contains various fatty acids and Caprylic/Capric is limited to just those two fatty acids and Caprylic/Capric is by esterification… FCO by pressing and distillation.

What I am not understanding is why these two substances are often called by the wrong names i.e. “caprylic/capric triglycerides also known as fractionated coconut oil”.  Have the Cosmetic Chemistry Police been notified? (joke!)

I happen to have a few gallons of this and both names are listed on the bottle!  Also I understand that they both have an incredibly long shelf life!  I just want to make sure I am understanding these two products so I can use them correctly!  Thanks!

[David08848]

ozgirl, thanks for your input!  Having different laws and legislation from country to country does add to the confusion but your last statement says it all as does Perry’s!  My shaving cream as well as my newly released liquid soap do have a higher pH which provide an environment in which bacteria and mold do not grow as easily but I decided to use preservatives in both anyway even though others who make these two products don’t always!  I’d rather be safe than sorry!

[David08848]

Thanks to Cris, Bill and Perry for their replies!  I’ve been to the F.D.A. site but didn’t see that!  Bill, that helps to give me a better perspective on the two!  And Perry, your answer is pretty darn clear about their way of approaching this issue.  I sent Perry a reply to his question off list but would welcome a reply from his either offlist or onlist if he wishes as someone else here may benefit from it too!  Thanks, everyone!

[David08848]

As a very experienced CP soapmaker I have had years of experience dealing with scents and I did suspect that some of the fragrances available to me might be lighter than others used in industry.  The scent for my shaving cream is added after the cool-down phase and the shaving cream is homogenized at that time.  So I can see that maybe the pH has a contributing factor in this situation and will either increase the amount used or work with fragrance oil manufacturer to increase the scent level in the fragrance which is entirely doable!  Thanks for your input!

[David08848]

I make an old style shaving cream with these ingredients:

Ingredients:  Water, Stearic Acid, Myristic Acid, Potassium Hydroxide, Glycerin, Cocos Nucifera (Coconut) Oil, Sodium Hydroxide, fragrance, Lavandula Officinalis (Lavender) Oil, Pelargonium  Graveolens (Geranium) Oil, Sodium Hydroxymethylglycinate, Triethanolamine, Tetrasodium  EDTA

I tried the scent level at 1.5% and customers complained that they couldn’t smell anything so I upped it to 3% and some are fine and some aren’t as strong as I would like.

What I am wondering is whether fragrance companies who sell to resellers online for the home crafting market dilute their fragrances from what they would be from the “professional” market?

Or is there something about a “soap-based” product like this that causes the scent to somehow disappear when it is in a higher chain fatty acid soap made from Stearic Acid used in this kind of soap?

Any help will be appreciated!  Thanks!

[David08848]

Belassi!  Brilliantine and Hair Pomades are all the rage for todays’ “Lumbersexuals”!  So many new hairstyles with a tight taper on the neck and above the ears with a full or raised top held in place with products like these are what is popular now.  I spent a couple of days back at our apartment in Tribeca in New York City and saw masses of men who looked like this while I was out and about!  I thought it would be a good time to investigate doing a product like this!

[David08848]

Thank you, Bob! 

A link to PCPC Buyers guide has been saved in my browser. 

^^

[David08848]

Yes, it should.  This was often the result in what used to be known as “vanishing creams”.  Here is a link:

http://www.cosmeticsandskin.com/aba/vanishing-cream.php

David

[David08848]

The benefits of having excess, unsaponified Stearic Acid would be the “creaminess” that it would give a cream.  Brushless shaving creams often have unsaponfied stearic acid to give the cream a smooth, creamy consistency ideal for shaving.  These shaving creams are very much like old style facial creams in the 1920s, 30s and 40s.

David

[David08848]

I found it!  Again it is from a chemical company, Stepan but it does show a variety of surfactants foam tests!  For whatever it is worth:

http://www.stepan.com/Products/General-Literature.aspx

Click on “personal care” and download “Stepan Sufate Free Cross Reference for Personal Care”

It shows quite a few pictures of foam testing and you may find it helpful.

David

[David08848]

thebrain,  I’ll be following this with interest!  I had a file that had photos of foam tests on different surfactants but I haven’t located it…yet!  Here is a link to a Colonial Chemical file (on the bottom of this page) that compares all of their betaines.  Yes, I know it is from a manufacturer so keep that in mind but they do make comparisons between all their betaine products which I have not often seen from chemical companies!

http://www.colonialchem.com/fm/search/?query=betaines

If I find the file with the foam comparison photos I’ll post it!

The best of luck to you!
David