David08848
Forum Replies Created
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Been there, done it… very successfully…
Your post says “cream style shaving cream (non foam)”. Do you mean non- lathering or are you talking about old style lathering shaving cream sold in tubs and lathered with a brush? If it is the latter then here are my recommendations:
It is much easier to add the glycerin in the water phase. The same goes for other additives like propylene glycol. Saponification of fatty acids happens very quickly so looking for “trace” (you’re using “cream soap” terms in a cosmetic chemisty board so be prepared for those who might not know these terms) to happen might not happen at all as the thickening of this type of product happens very quickly! My batches are done in less than 10 minutes from beginning to end of processing! Preservatives (some temperature sensitive) and fragrance can be added in the homogenization phase.
Since this soap has a “descriptive” name in front of it i.e. “shaving” then it would be covered by the FDA and as such should have a preservative. The pH is usually around 8.5 to 9.0 or so. I’ve been on the phone with the FDA so I got that info first-hand! Suttocide A was recommended by a cosmetic chemist (but is has a distinct scent that I did not like) but I have switched to one containing Phenoxyethanol. You also mentioned a term “rotting” which was originally coined by the author Thomssen and even he did see much point in leaving a formula for a period of time to get to to change consistency, so keep that in mind. Also, it will be much easier for you to work in a formula based on 100% to help you determine the correct amount of fragrance and preservation etc. that you will need!
I did a ton of research, read many soapmaking and cosmetic chemistry books, world patents and any other info I could find and have a 131 page document with experiments and observations on this kind of shaving cream so I have a great deal of knowledge and experience in this area. The amazing thing is that this is not a difficult type of product to formulate or manufacture. Finding good and reliable info was the difficult part! Special thanks to the cosmetic chemists here and other places who helped me along the way! Good luck!
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It becomes a matter of shopping around! I recently discovered that the Stearic Acid I was using has a Stearic Acid content from 42-47% and a Palmitic content of 52-58% yet is is called Stearic Acid NF (INCI: Stearic Acid). But my understanding is that it functions quite similarly to Stearic with different ratios but I was surprised to find that it had an SAP value higher than I had been using to calculate for my project. Corrections then needed to be made… If you have specific requirements, you need to be careful “shopping” and get the proper documentation from your potential supplier.
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I think this worked out much better…for the moment! The measuring cup is sitting on a special stand inside the stainless steel pot. I had the hand-held thermometer nearby and kept an eye on it. It never got much above 160F and it worked well to process the batch at the temperature I needed and was fairly easy to pour. Next time I’ll use the new Pyrex measuring cup!
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I learned about microwaves in Home Economics in High School in 1973 when they were new and just out on the market. Exciting the water molecules was what we were taught…43 years later you’d think I would remember that? I use large restaurant size double-boilers for regular soap making in my 800 Sq. ft workroom for my business and I guess I was just looking to make these test batches quickly and eventually the fatty acids did melt but because the glass was heating up which I observed while taking temperatures of the batches. As I said, the glass did melt the fatty acids but if you don’t continuously stir then the heat builds up and breaks the glass… This was a small batch and my particular formula seems to be only able to work in small batches. I will set up a double-boiler and try using the new Pyrex 2 quart measuring cups I picked up today at WalMart. I have the little metal “stand” that sits in the pot upon which I can put the measuring cup and a hand-held thermometer to check on temps during the procedure. Even if I decide to heat up a larger amount of the oil phase enough for several batches in a stainless steel pot then I can then pour it into these Pyrex measuring cups which I will preheat to match the oil phase temps and go from there! I posted the pic to make sure no-one else has a “duh” moment like I did! Thanks!
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Belassi, I took your hint and ordered 3 Two Quart Pyrex Measuring bowls from WalMart! (rolls eyes) They should be in the store on Friday for pickup! I checked out the bowls I had and they were Anchor Hocking but this is what happened to them! What is the difference between them and Pyrex?
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Using restaurant stuff has been my way of improvising and has worked well for me so I understand your “inventiveness”! I have a good quality restaurant hot plate which has worked well for years and many large stainless steel pots of all shapes and sizes but have to keep these batches fairly small for them to work. I need glass to see through to determine the “homogenization” of this product but am concerned with heating up something glass and if I were to heat the fatty acids up in a double boiler I would also have to heat up the glass container I would process the batches in so that the fatty acids don’t solidify on contact with the cooler glass! So, if I used a glass container of some sort and heated the batch in a stainless steel bottom of a double boiler it might work. It may also work to use stainless steel within stainless steel but I haven’t tried that yet. Either a stainless steel pitcher with a spout or one that is glass but sturdy enough to use in and out of the double boiler and will hold up to the heat and the mixing and pouring… nothing is easy, is it!
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Bob,
Thanks for putting together your reply with the links to everything! Greatly appreciated! You posted some ideas I hadn’t thought of and I never head about the boiling chips or thought of the beaker tongs! My restaurant supply place might have some similar things or I can order some of these online! Thanks again for all of your suggestions and for taking the time to reply! -
I found this on an Aussie site… thought it looked interesting!
http://www.aussiesoapsupplies.com.au/sodium-lactate-plus.html
FYI
David
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I have seen potassium lactate listed during my research over the last few weeks but I haven’t seen the calcium, zinc and ammonium versions. I just did a quick look-up and saw several of these used in food processing! Thanks again for your reply!
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Thanks, Belassi! This was probably a simple problem but with me the difficult stuff becomes easy and the simple stuff is difficult! I’ll let you know how it comes out! Thanks, again!
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Now another option (as suggested by my personal trainer 😮 ) would be to take the active (in this case sodium lactate is used at 3%) out of the glycerin (1.8%) and the water (1.2%) out of water! The numbers work out and the percentage of “liquid” i.e. H2O, glycerin and sodium lactate solution, remains the same. Please tell me if I am thinking this out correctly! Thank you!
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I’ll bring this back up since the description of what I’m trying to accomplish is described above…
Since I had decided to add Sodium Lactate, should I remove some of the glycerin in the formula and replace it with sodium lactate or should I leave the glycerin percentage alone and take it out of the water phase? Thanks!
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Thanks for your input. I have tried it twice in a shaving soap but am unsure of the results and will have to experiment a bit more to see what will work best for me.
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I see your point, Belassi but I’m a very cautious guy when it comes to products like this. I’ll see how the sodium lactate goes and consider the salt if need be.
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Bill, thanks! I suspected that there might be some sort of problem in working with a powdered form of sodium lactate. I am figuring now that using the powdered form might cause inaccuracies in measuring because of the humectancy and opening and closing of the container with each use so I will go with the liquid form! I appreciate your assistance!
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True, but since this is a shaving soap might that cause irritation to razor cuts?
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I replied to this last evening but somehow it wasn’t posted! I have read new things suggesting that the sodium lactate make the batch more liquid at first and more solid as it cools which would be good if it is true. The sodium lactate comes in liquid and solid and solid would be cheaper to ship because you’re not shipping water but I was wondering if there might be some reason to use the liquid over the solid and hoped that someone with experience here might be able to help answer this question.
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Mike, I don’t use a cool lye solution because I am saponifying fatty acids with high melt points. I have since read that Sodium Lactate actually creates a more liquid batch when making hot process soap and the hardening of the batch happens when cool. If this is, indeed, the case then it should work well for this purpose. I just wanted to know which was the better choice liquid or powder. Liquid would be more expensive because you’re paying for the water to be shipped and it does come in powdered form which would be cheaper in price and cheaper shipping but there might be some technical reason or product usage reason to buy one vs. the other and that is why I posted this question…
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I have followed Swiftcraftymonkey for quite a while and admire her fearless approach to making cosmetics. Although she does do a great deal of research and does her best to formulate she is still a hobbyist and not a cosmetic chemist (and neither am I!) so take that into consideration when you read her blog. I have seen some great stuff on her site but also a few attempts that, although may work very well, are not aesthetically pleasing. However, I do encourage you to go to her blog but keep in mind what I am said.
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It’s not only helpful to learn what to use but what not to use! Thanks, thebrain! I should have considered the source regarding the temperature and I’ll leave it at that… I’m glad to hear that it hasn’t been a problem for you in CP and HP soapmaking especially since I deal with higher than normal temps in this project! I’ll stick with Glycerin! Thanks for your help! I’ll keep you posted on my progress!
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I am doing this soap using the “cold process” (using high temps.) and am trying to be able to pour the soap as a liquid (to get better finished results and no air pockets) before it becomes a paste but I want to make sure that it is fully emulsified. There is only a small window to time in which I can do this and it is dependent upon keeping the temps as high as possible. Bart, I appreciate your observation and it helps me to better understand the relationship between the sodium lactate and the other ingredients! As I mentioned before the temperature is indeed crucial!
Glad to hear your experience with sodium lactate, thebrain. I took the info from the link I posted and it was stated that it shouldn’t be used above 130F and the meltpoint of Stearic Acid is about 156F so that is part of my concern.
http://www.soapqueen.com/bramble-berry-news/sunday-night-spotlight-sodium-lactate/
I have seen Sodium Lactate sold as a powder and a solution and the above article indicates it can be used as a thickener so that was the appeal as long as it doesn’t speed up the process the the batch can remain emulsified until it is poured. After seeing the “sodium citrate” and “sodium citrate and sodium lactate” in two shaving soap ingredients I posted a question about that as I want to consider all options which may benefit my product and help in my production.
I already use glycerin and the other ingredients are fatty acids and coconut oil so only the coconut oil can contribute glycerin in the process. I know I threw another thing into the pot by mentioning the powerful humectant Hyaluronic Acid but if it can benefit my soap then I’m willing to try it and I have online sources for Hyaluronic Acid that can be purchased in small amounts for now.
Thanks, guys for the input and if you have an additional observations I welcome them! THANKS!
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Hyaluronic Acid?
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Through further research I found “sodium citrate” and “sodium citrate and sodium lactate” as ingredients in a shaving soap. “Sodium Citrate” was also listed is an emulsifier used in making cheese that doesn’t release “grease” upon melting… any comments or suggestions would be appreciated!
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I do have some Soy wax that I could try and I have to admit that I never heard of hydrogenated Palm Kernel Oil but just looked it up! Thanks, Vitalys!
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Vitalys, Thanks for posting this calculator! Nice to see one with all the fatty acids and the water percentage options!