[Chemist77]

@chemist1 take 3-4% equal qty of cetyl nd cetostearyl , 0.5% GMS SE, 2% LLP, 3% conditioner sounds fine and start adding lauramine oxide till u get the optimize the wash off and viscosity parameters i just had a wild trial and i addes upto 6% LO worked out to be a thick enuff cream 

as for evaluation u can do it the way best for u 

[Chemist77]

I suggest you make the base first and then start adding the LAA and accordingly use the thickener suggested by @Perry if still you find a need for the thickener. But if you have an ASM issue then make use of the thickener from the beginning to maintain the viscosity. Btw I would throw in a little Cetyl alcohol as well to have a synergistic thickening in addition with the polymer. 

[Chemist77]

@Bobzchemist Pretty insightful and pointblank. 

[Chemist77]

@Belassi I agree with you but at times the formula just can’t be finished without an additional thickener, secondly the advantage here is that the drop in pH increases the viscosity as opposed to other thickeners where after neutralization a pH of around neutral needs to me maintained and which is undesired for shampoo formulas in general. 

[Chemist77]

@DavidW Guess you can incorporate this Aqua Sf-! and the back acid thickening is really amazing, I am using citric acid solution and it turns out pretty thick and good yield value. But again I would remind you that if CETAC is that cationic chloride salt then even your SF-1 is going to ppt out. 

[Chemist77]

Although I am not very well versed with enzyme preservation and all, in fact to be brutally honest this is the first time I heard that glucose might be considered as a preservative no matter what the quantity is. Its a revelation for me, and as for the response I suppose every word that you have penned shouts out so loud and clear that even a layman can feel technical after reading it. 

Indeed a great post for late comer like me. 

[Chemist77]

@ Bobzchemist And thanks for making me feel absolutely guilty for something I did long back  )

[Chemist77]

@ Bobzchemist I was when I started my career as prototype shades were fed in the master computer and the shade matching of course was visual and manual. The computer won’t write formulas for you as we know, it just indicated a trend of the shade. Additionally, the computer just made it look more trustworthy and provided a sense of accuracy, before the samples could be dispatched for customer approval. As for the cost, well the company could afford it and so had it.
But very old story now, not into color cosmetics and shade matching anymore. Fell for personal care and never looked back.

[Chemist77]

@Bobzchemist But thats the fun Robert, trials upon trials to get that shade and when the computer shows a green dot close to the center of the circle, that feeling of elation and accomplishment is worth the effort. 

[Chemist77]

I think for that reason @chemicalmatt was bang on money here when he mentioned methocel as the thickener, in addition.

[Chemist77]

@IrinaTudor And wouldn’t you consider the polarity of individual components of the fragrance which affect the balanced micelle charge and consequently leading to disruption of close packing to cause viscosity loss. This is over and above what you have mentioned in your observation.

[Chemist77]

@chemicalmatt Lots of luck on E. combat, as for the reply as usual it couldn’t be more simple, couldn’t be more clear. 

Thanks a lot Sir.

[Chemist77]

@Perry As we know that the fragrances have polar components and they try to affect the stable micelle charge, sometimes the polarity is strong enough to disrupt the whole packing and at times the packing can weather the onslaught though. And generally a mix of solubilizers works better with adamant fragrances. A 4W drive is needed for desert safari, family sedan won’t work there. Choice of fragrance is decided at the beginning phase of development keeping in view every aspect related to the product (standard procedure). 

But as you said its too complicated to delve into and lose the touch of main issue here which is basically holding the viscosity with clarity. 

Hope @chemicalmatt can chip in here with his bang on money one liner reply. 

Cheers 

[Chemist77]

@ Perry maybe we can mention hydrogen bonding of the ethoxylated entities of solubilizer here with the external phase (the phase around micelles) of the surfactant system here and hence the difference in solubility performance. Just a wild thought though.

[Chemist77]

@Belassi continuing with your statement and hence the micelle packing is getting destroyed by the fragrance leading to the drop in viscosity and the fragrance components (read oils for the sake of simplifying) turning the recipe hazy.

[Chemist77]

Sorry to intrude but was wondering if you ever heard of solubilizers??????/

[Chemist77]

I would count in Lauramine Oxide as well, good thickener and as @Belassi said has both the charges and is pH dependent. But this is a very mild conditioning we are talking about otherwise for an intense one it has to poo-con process in my opinion.

[Chemist77]

@Belassi If I am not mistaken then CETAC is cetyl trimethylammonium chloride and hence the formation of insoluble white complex of plus and minus charges and then you have the usual suspects in the form of oils to give additional haziness and instability. 

[Chemist77]

Wow too many anomalies in the formula, anionic and cationic together (though polyquat is fine), then too much of a preservative and to top it up you have a good amount of oil as well in the formula. I would be surprised if the formula remained stable, period.

[Chemist77]

They both are weak acids though glycolic acid is monoprotic and citric is triprotic and if used just for buffering (and not as keratolytic) I suppose they are pretty safe.

[Chemist77]

Looking at the chemistry of the 2 surfactants I suppose glucoside would be gentler on the skin. But again we have to remember that C-chain length too plays a role in determining the irritation potential. 

[Chemist77]

IIRC my company developed a lipstick sealer long time back and it had Dermacryl 79, Ethanol and little glycol to plasticize and reduce the effect of ethanol harshness. Worked well, hope it gives you some lead.

[Chemist77]

Good question but what kind of are you looking for????? W/O or O/W type????

[Chemist77]

I wrote the word ‘abuse’ so that the humans cannot consume it after buying it for other reasons. This is the reason why denatured alcohol is used, although in many countries I have seen absolute too being sold but then the regulations are strict to the last drop of the material. 

In fact many countries have restrictions for precursor solvents too like acetone and you have to furnish all the info re it’s use. 

[Chemist77]

Read carefully what I wrote, nowhere have I mentioned that alcohol absolute or denatured would affect the solubility of salicylic acid. But the presence of water FOR WHICH I MENTIONED AQUEOUS would definitely retard the solubility and hence ethanol has been used.
Hope that is pretty plain to understand now.