fragrance causes thin and hazy in baby shampoo

Formulating

fragrance causes thin and hazy in baby shampoo

Posted by nasrins on October 21, 2014 at 4:52 am

when I add fragrance to baby transparent shampoo it decreased viscosity and causes cloudy.

I try several fragrances(seluz company) and I have these problems in most of them. is there a way to avoid this?

IrinaTudor replied 9 years, 7 months ago 6 Members · 21 Replies
21 Replies

Chemist77

Member
October 21, 2014 at 5:03 am

Sorry to intrude but was wondering if you ever heard of solubilizers??????/
nasrins

Member
October 21, 2014 at 5:42 am

u mean PEG40HCO, PG, glycerin and DPG? they dont work…
OldPerry

Member
October 21, 2014 at 7:52 am

Typically, a solubilzer is a nonionic surfactant. You should try Polysorbate 20 (or 80). Oleth-40 or something like that.
belassi

Member
October 21, 2014 at 9:27 am

Probably your surfactants are not good emulsifiers.
Chemist77

Member
October 21, 2014 at 9:34 am

@Belassi continuing with your statement and hence the micelle packing is getting destroyed by the fragrance leading to the drop in viscosity and the fragrance components (read oils for the sake of simplifying) turning the recipe hazy.
nasrins

Member
October 21, 2014 at 10:14 am

@perry I tried polysorbate 80 and it works very well but why it works and others dont? would u explain it to me?
OldPerry

Member
October 21, 2014 at 11:31 am

@nasrins - the answer to this question is much more complicated than you might imagine. Fragrances are made up of dozens or even hundreds of different molecules each of which can have a different compatibility profile with the solublizer. Polysorbate 80 has a lower HLB value 15 versus Polysorbate 20 (HLB 16.5) so that could have something to do with it. But there are so many other factors that could come into play like the residual ingredients in your formula, the exact amounts you used, and a host of other things that I really can’t give you much more of an answer.

Unfortunately, there is a lot about cosmetic science that hasn’t been thoroughly investigated because most of the people working in the field are looking for solutions to problems rather than answer about the fundamental principles behind subjects.
Chemist77

Member
October 21, 2014 at 11:35 am

@ Perry maybe we can mention hydrogen bonding of the ethoxylated entities of solubilizer here with the external phase (the phase around micelles) of the surfactant system here and hence the difference in solubility performance. Just a wild thought though.
Chemist77

Member
October 21, 2014 at 11:44 am

@Perry As we know that the fragrances have polar components and they try to affect the stable micelle charge, sometimes the polarity is strong enough to disrupt the whole packing and at times the packing can weather the onslaught though. And generally a mix of solubilizers works better with adamant fragrances. A 4W drive is needed for desert safari, family sedan won’t work there. Choice of fragrance is decided at the beginning phase of development keeping in view every aspect related to the product (standard procedure).

But as you said its too complicated to delve into and lose the touch of main issue here which is basically holding the viscosity with clarity.

Hope @chemicalmatt can chip in here with his bang on money one liner reply.

Cheers
OldPerry

Member
October 21, 2014 at 12:53 pm

@milliachemist - yes, Hydrogen bonding of course. It seems Hydrogen bonding affects everything in chemistry.
chemicalmatt

Member
October 21, 2014 at 1:04 pm

Thanks for the lead-in, milliachemist. It’s good to take a break from Ebola combat today.

To address nasrins’ immediate problem, perhaps she only needs to alter her order of addition. If she has 15% total solids surfactant activity in her formula, the norm for a baby washer, and we assume most of that is amphoteric, also the norm for those products, then she likely has what she needs to clarify her formula. She needs to incorporate the fragrance oil directly into the surfactant blend, then add to water (or water to it, as the case may be) and other ingredients. As for the viscosity crash: I suspect a big slug of nonylphenol ethoxylate is lurking in her fragrance. That surfactant is commonly used as a fragrance oil ingredient (disperser-soulbilizer) and is a notorious viscosity crasher in anionic-amphoteric systems. Bummer. Nasrins, you may need another builder in there, or a rheology modifier (Methocel works).
Chemist77

Member
October 21, 2014 at 1:15 pm

@chemicalmatt Lots of luck on E. combat, as for the reply as usual it couldn’t be more simple, couldn’t be more clear.

Thanks a lot Sir.
belassi

Member
October 21, 2014 at 3:18 pm

Completely agree with @chemicalmatt. When adding fragrance to my sulphate-free shampoo I always add it directly to the sodium cocoamphoacetate, which is an excellent emulsifier, then blend well, then add that to the other surfactants and blend again. I don’t need to add polysorbate and in fact I do not like polysorbate in shampoo, it’s a real foam-killer.
nasrins

Member
October 22, 2014 at 1:52 am

@perry <Polysorbate 80 has a lower HLB value 15 versus Polysorbate 20 (HLB 16.5) so that could have something to do with it.> whats relation between HLB and solubilizing? the higher HLB the higher solubility in water, just for this?
nasrins

Member
October 22, 2014 at 2:07 am

@chemicalmatt so the best way is that I add fragrance to my surfactants(here is amphoteric and little anionic) and then add them to other ingredients?
IrinaTudor

Member
October 22, 2014 at 5:02 am

Hi @nasrins a lot of excellent advice has been given. I would like to add the following:

-first add polysorbate 80 to the fragrance

-then add the surfactants to the fragrance

So basically you first need to prepare your fragrance solution. Then add the surfactants bit by bit while mixing them in to the same beaker that contains the fragrance concentrate. A bit like making mayonnaise from scratch

You can always ask a fragrance specialist for designing a fragrance that is compatible with your specific formulation. Don’t hesitate to contact me if you need specific help with this.

p.s. I don’t think that nonylphenol ethoxylate is necessarily the culprit, most solvents used for fragrance concentrates are DEP, DPG and IPM. DPG and IPM can indeed pose viscosity and stability problems when mixed with surfactants. I wonder how you came to that conclusion @chemicalmatt? There is always so much to learn
Chemist77

Member
October 22, 2014 at 5:33 am

@IrinaTudor And wouldn’t you consider the polarity of individual components of the fragrance which affect the balanced micelle charge and consequently leading to disruption of close packing to cause viscosity loss. This is over and above what you have mentioned in your observation.
IrinaTudor

Member
October 22, 2014 at 5:58 am

@milliachemist, yes, I would. But @nasrins can’t do that, as the fragrance mixtures are provided as such: mixtures of an unknown number of undisclosed mystery components. This is often the case with pre-mixed fragrance blends.Unless the supplier can provide a spec sheet where the polarity of the mixture has been determined (not likely to happen), there is not much she can do other than prevent further or trouble shoot existing issues.
nasrins

Member
October 22, 2014 at 6:27 am

@irinatudor ur advice was so clear and applied …

thanks all of you
Chemist77

Member
October 22, 2014 at 7:16 am

I think for that reason @chemicalmatt was bang on money here when he mentioned methocel as the thickener, in addition.
IrinaTudor

Member
October 22, 2014 at 8:11 am

You’re most welcome @nasrins!