[Camel]

Rafacasti said:

I once heard that between the two forms of vitamin E most used in cosmetics (“Tocopheryl Acetate” and “Tocopherol”) one is more effective for protecting cosmetics and the other for having antioxidant action on the skin (not sure which one) - and that, if I’m not mistaken, doesn’t protects the formulation. So, research with your suppliers before deciding what to use.

Tocopherol is the one that will protect the formulation, while Tocopheryl Acetate has supposed skin benefits. 

[Camel]

Karo_lina said:

does increasing the amount of glycerin make sense? 

Yes, you could increase the amount of glycerin if you’d like, although some people find higher levels of glycerin to feel sticky. Try 5% and see if you like how it feels. I have made products with up to 20% glycerin that didn’t feel sticky, but it really depends on the formula, I suppose.

Is this a product you are selling? You could also consider adding niacinamide at 4-5%. It is a really popular ingredient in toners used by many big brands. Might help with the marketing and it does have some supporting studies for its use, plus dermatologists seem to love it. 

[Camel]

Yes, but it really depends what you are trying to achieve in this toner. With this formula, you are basically just spraying water on your face, which there is nothing inherently wrong with doing. 

[Camel]

Soap is created by the saponification of oils with sodium hydroxide (bar soaps) or potassium hydroxide (liquid soaps). I believe the “original” soap first came to be in the Middle East and was created by combining water, sodium hydroxide, and olive oil to make a bar. This became known as “Castile” soap. 

Soap-free products are created using synthetic detergents/surfactants, such as sulfates, isethionates, glucosides, etc. Some of them can be considered “natural” as they may be derived from coconuts, apples, oats, etc. 

The advantage of a soap-free product is that they are typically more gentle on the skin, as they can be pH balanced, while soaps are generally harsher and more stripping due to their high pH. 

[Camel]

@niecie2k, just be mindful of the stability of your gel as the oils may separate over time without an emulsifier. The carbomer may keep it suspended and looking stable, but it could possibly separate. You may be interested in looking into formulating gel-creams for your hair! 

[Camel]

I agree with @ketchito; I don’t think you need PQ-7 in this formula, but if you really want to include it, try using a smaller amount. Garnier uses PQ-11 in their “curl scrunch” gel with carbomer, but judging by its placement on the LOI, it’s less than 1%. 

Also, what is the reason for adding oil to a water-based hair gel?

[Camel]

1. No, they are limited to protecting the oil phase.

2. “Natural” Vitamin E 😉

3. I believe chelating agents can work synergistically with antioxidants. LotionCrafter says sodium phytate does, but I don’t actually know…

[Camel]

You might be able to get better assistance if you share the formula, but I will say that adding dimethicone should help with reducing tackiness. 

[Camel]

I agree regarding Artisoflex AVC being the more elegant choice, however, it is worth nothing that it is not tolerant of electrolytes, so depending on your formula, Zen might be the better choice. 

I like to use a two-part system for creating gel-creams. HEC (hydroxyethylcellulose), a water-gelling polymer, around 0.5-1%. I pair that with a non-polymeric oil-gelling agent, “Butter Pearls” (C10-18 Triglycerides), at around 3-5%. 

It is probably a much less conventional way of doing things, but I’ve created many lovely, stable gel-creams using this method. It also allows you to use any emulsifier you’d like, and no need to worry about electrolytes. 

[Camel]

The skin is composed of about 64% water. 

The goal of a moisturizer is to prevent Transepidermal Water Loss (TEWL), a naturally occurring physiological phenomenon that happens to everyone throughout the day.

Excessive TEWL can cause dry and dehydrated skin. It is caused by the rate of water loss from the epidermis being higher than the skin’s natural ability to hydrate itself. It can be a result of low-humidity climate, over-cleansing, genetics, etc. 

A proper moisturizer would ideally contain a combination of three properties:

• Occlusives (e.g. petrolatum)
• Humectants (e.g. glycerin)
• Emollients (e.g. mineral oil)

Water is also important for the skin to retain hydration. My dermatologist recommends applying moisturizer to damp skin to seal-in the moisture from the water.

(I am not an expert and hope someone will correct me if I am wrong)

[Camel]

MarkBroussard said:

@Camel:

My experience is that HMW HA actually destablizes an emulsion.  If you add the HMW HA to the water phase pre-emulsification oftentimes the emulsion will not form and you’ll shread the HA during homogenization.  Add HMW HA post-emulsification is feasible, but I would not categorize it as an emulsion stabilizer.

Thank you, Mark! That was exactly the information I was looking for. 

ozgirl said:

Why would you replace low cost ingredients (Xanthan,HEC) that are known to stabilise the emulsion with a very high cost ingredient like HA? Or are you looking for a different sensorial profile?

If you want to add HA for label appeal just add a small amount post emulsification as Mark Broussard suggested.

I guess my question was more out of curiosity. I was thinking about how HA can make gels, and was wondering if that could replace HEC to serve the same purpose (stability) with the additional functionality of HA. Of course, it would have been more costly, but this is just for personal use! 

[Camel]

Anyone know? Thanks in advance!

[Camel]

Happy Birthday, Perry! Thank you for lending your expertise to everyone on this forum. 

[Camel]

You will find that most people on this forum do not like EWG. It is not a great source as they label many ingredients that have been proven safe and effective as “harmful.” 

Propanediol is used in many baby shampoos and baby lotions. EWG notes that the health risks in cosmetics are low:

“And after a panel of experts working for the Cosmetic Ingredient Review analyzed current data on propanediol, they found it to be safe when used in cosmetics.

In a study of topical propanediol on human skin, researchers only found evidence of irritation in a very low percentage of people.”

(I am not an expert/professional)

[Camel]

filiz said:

First of all, thank you for replying. What esters would you recommend? @Camel

You could replace the olive oil with Natrasil (Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate, Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables) which should be much lighter and less sticky. I like to use it in moisturizers/conditioners. You could also replace the jojoba oil with jojoba esters. Another ingredient you might consider researching is C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate. I don’t have experience with it, though.

filiz said:

Hi, hope you’re fine @ketchito 
I’m having a hard time finding some silicone alternatives, frankly. 

What % do you think isopropyl myristate should be reduced to? and If you have any other suggestions that meet the condition, please let me know  

It is hard to find alternatives to silicones without sacrificing performance. Natrasil is marketed as a silicone alternative, but you definitely won’t get the same performance. It’s still an option, though. 

Most sellers suggest using isopropyl myristate at no more than 10%. 

[Camel]

ketchito said:

@Camel Interestingly, Behentrimonium chloride or methosulfate have a max allowed dose (5% I brlieve) according to Cosing, precisely because of cationic’s irritation potential, while SLES has no restriction. Also, SLES is always used at significantly higher dose than BMTS, which is not a fair comparison.

Personally, I have nothing against SLS/SLES. They just aren’t the best for marketing, but interestingly enough, BTMS appears to be well-received by all the “natural” bloggers. 

Side note: I didn’t think people cared that much about sulfates until I made a shampoo and conditioner for my aunt and the first question she asked me was if it was sulfate-free. ????

[Camel]

Perry said:

Behentrimonium methosulfate is a sulfate from a chemistry point of view. If a lawyer decided to sue you what would your defense be?  I understand that it’s not the same as SLS or SLES but I don’t think you should claim sulfate free if you use that. It will also confuse consumers since the word sulfate is literally in the name.

On second look, it appears most products containing BTMS will claim “free from harsh sulfates” rather than “sulfate free”, my mistake. ???? But it would be interesting to see someone sue over it…

[Camel]

I would reduce fragrance to 1% or less. To make it feel lighter, you could try replacing some of the olive oil and sweet almond oil with a lighter oil like the sunflower seed oil, but I agree with Abdullah. You might consider using esters instead of oils for a less sticky/heavy product. 

[Camel]

Yes, you can claim sulfate-free with those ingredients. 

[Camel]

How much are you trying to add to your formula?

If it’s only a small amount (1%?), the carbomer might be able to suspend it / keep it from separating, though you might be safer including a solubilizer like PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil.

If it’s a larger amount, you will need to include an emulsifier and form an emulsion. Despite being lightweight, squalane is still an oil, and oils do not mix with water.

(I am not an expert/professional) 

[Camel]

@Perry @Rockstargirl thank you! That was very helpful. 

[Camel]

@Perry, I was curious because I have been prescribed BPO in the past by my dematologist and my skin experienced irritation even at the lower levels. After a couple of months, I switched to SA and found no irritation. So, it’s great to know they are comparatively effective. 

Would you happen to know the efficacy of these ingredients in a cleanser? Is it worth using or is there low deposition?

[Camel]

I would also like to know if anyone has some insight to offer. 

[Camel]

@Perry, very true! ???? But in my case, I only make products for my own use, so I try to stay away from ingredients that don’t offer any real functionality since I don’t need the marketing benefits. 

[Camel]

@Perry, thank you for confirming my suspicions. That was a very interesting and informative read.