[Camel]

Graillotion said:

I could not open that study…what was the inclusion rate they were using?

@Graillotion - 1, 3, and 5% of each

[Camel]

Pb610 said:

Re niacinamide, my own experience with it is that 5-10% in water definitely seems to act as an astringent. After drying it seems to leave my skin more taut and rubbery. At higher concentrations it just dries into a residue on top of the skin so >10% would be pretty pointless. I also bought some dl-panthenol which works much better as a humectant, it soaks into the skin much easier and leaves it more plump. For a leave on cream I’d guess 1-3% niacinamide would be fine, although I’m still very much a novice at all this.

Argireline might be worth looking into as well, if you’re trying to make your skin look tighter. I’ve yet to play with it though.

I have been using niacinamide at 5% for a couple of months now in my moisturizer and haven’t noticed an astringent feeling, but that’s very interesting. Thank you for sharing. I will probably reduce it to 4% considering that is the level most clinical research has used. 

Pb610 said:

Also came across this short study comparing niacinamide with d-panthenol, might be of some use: https://sphinxsai.com/2016/ph_vol9_no7/1/(99-104)V9N7PT.pdf

Thank you for linking that! According to this study, I would prefer the reduction of pore size, spots and wrinkles that niacinamide can supposedly provide, over the moisture from panthenol. I’ve heard panthenol can make products feel sticky, and as I’m already using glycerin, I’m worried the feel would be too unpleasant when combined. Any opinion on that?

[Camel]

Abdullah said:

I said so because in my opinion 1% HEC will not have pleasant skin feel and i don’t know if lower amount of it will stabilize the emulsion. 
0.3% xanthan gum i know that can stabilize the emulsion. 

If you are ok with the feeling of your product then there is no problem with HEC.

I will try making a version with 0.3% xanthan gum instead of HEC and see how it compares. Thanks for your advice!

[Camel]

ngarayeva001 said:

You have a bit of a contradicting approach here. On one hand, you have a lot of glycerin and a lot of petrolatum that assume extremely dry skin. On the other hand, you have an elastomer for blurring, niacinamide and SA which are usually used for oilier skin. 

What is your skin like? What is your goal?

I absolutely love petrolatum, but you need to know “how to cook with it” and why are you using it. 

Other comments: you don’t have anything there that can oxidise. That tocopherol isn’t needed. Your preservative is too weak. It is called broad spectrum but it’s shit for mould and yeast. Right now however it might be okayish because you have 10% of glycerin which somewhat reduces water activity. I would still replace it with phenonip if you don’t mind synthetics.
In terms of aesthetics.. your stabilisers/thickeners are not very pleasing. It’s purely subjective. But if you don’t mind synthetics replace that HEC with some polymeric emulsifier/stabiliser. Sepimax Zen would work with SA. Sepinov EMT10 or Sepigel 305 probably would be good too if you don’t increase that SA.

I have combination, acne-prone skin. The SA has helped me control my acne over the years in the least sensitizing manner.

I was under the impression that niacinamide was suitable for all skin types, is it not? I added it to help reduce redness with its supposed anti-inflammatory activity. 

I love Vaseline and use it everyday, so I added it to my moisturizer as the occlusive for reducing TEWL. I also like Neutrogena’s Hydro Boost Gel Cream, which uses glycerin, petrolatum and dimethicone as the 2nd, 4th, and 5th ingredients. So, I kind of chose glycerin, petrolatum and dimethicone based on that, to be honest. 

I thought the elastomer would be fun to experiment with but I haven’t noticed any difference vs. Dimethicone 350 so I’m probably going to just substitute it. 

Thanks for clarifying about the tocopherol. I had a suspicion it wasn’t needed but wasn’t too sure!

As for the preservative, I have liquid germall plus on hand. Would that be a more suitable option? I will need to purchase phenonip and wait for its arrival!

Would Sepimax Zen also be able to replace the Montanov L? I will experiment with subbing the HEC for it!

Thanks again!

[Camel]

Correction: I think the post regarding 98% TEWL reduction of petrolatum was actually by @Abdullah, not Perry. Sorry. 

[Camel]

@Pattsi, @Graillotion, @Abdullah - Thank you for your comments!

1. I chose to include niacinamide because my dermatologist seems to be a major fan of it. ???? I can reduce it to 4%, but I did see some clinical research for 5% usage. 

2. I purchased a sample of EL40 because supplier claims it has a “soft-focus/line-blurring” effect that sounded interesting, but I haven’t noticed any of that. I suppose I need to use more of it but I also don’t want it to increase the viscosity too much. I will probably replace it with Dimethicone 350 as I haven’t noticed a difference in my two samples. 

3. I added petrolatum because I saw a post by @Perry that mentioned it can reduce TEWL by up to 98% at 5%. I don’t mind the feel of it. ????

4. I’ve worked a lot with HEC and HPMC and like both of them. What don’t you like about it? Can you suggest an alternative I can experiment with? I was honestly just using what I currently have on hand. I don’t like xanthan gum, but I do have that as well. 

5. I’m actually not sensitive to SA at all! I used a 2% SA cream for months but have replaced it with a retinoid gel (adapalene). The sodium phytate brought the pH too high and adding 0.5% SA brought it down to 4.4, I figured it would add some gentle exfoliating properties on top of buffering the pH. Maybe not the most sensible way to do things, but like I said, I’m not sensitive to SA, hehe…

6. I have not noticed a sticky or tacky feeling with the glycerin at 10% but I will try making a version with 5% and see if it feels better!

Just to clarify: I am not trying to make a “natural” product and I am open to any synthetic alternatives. 

[Camel]

I’m not an expert and haven’t worked with this ingredient, but I ran a quick search on this forum and found an old post by @chemicalmatt:

“SD is a very good emulsifier - only when acidified into a tertiary amine salt to about pH 5 - but especially so when used in conjunction with alkyl quats such as CETAC, STEARAC and BEHENTAC, etc. Be advised you will obtain sharply different viscosity and stability outcomes depending upon the organic acid used. If you can afford glutamic acid that will work best, but good old inexpensive lactic acid 88% works nicely too.”

Hope that helps. 

[Camel]

Did you mean 0.05% or 0.5% for the HPMC and Carbomer? 

May as well remove the panthenol; it will only be rinsed down the drain and not deposited onto your skin. The aloe vera gel is likely unnecessary as well. 

I suggest following @Abdullah‘s advice to determine the cause of the cloudiness. 

[Camel]

Marketing is key. You could make the highest quality product, but without the marketing to back it, no one will care (unfortunately). 

Learn marketing (or hire an expert). Create a story for your brand. Create a story for each product. Communicate the difference between your brand/product and another brand/product. Convince them why they should buy into your brand vs. another brand. 

If you look at the best selling cosmetics, they all have elaborate marketing stories backing them. It also helps to have eye-catching packaging/labeling/branding. 

[Camel]

@Stephanie - You may want to read this study on the efficacy of salicylic acid when neutralized. It may be more effective than you think. 

[Camel]

Olivem 1000 may be a possible choice depending on how low you want the viscosity to be. I have found in my experiments with it that sometimes it can make emulsions too thick. I had a better experience using Olivem 800 (Cetearth-6 Olivate) when I wanted a low viscosity. 

Another option may be “Natural Emulsifier 146” (Cyclodextrin, Sorbitol, Polyglyceryl-3 Diisostearate) AKA Beauté by Roquette® DS 146. 

It is a cold-process emulsifier, and although I haven’t experimented with it that much yet, I have made some really lightweight, low viscosity spray-lotions containing 5-10% oils using it. I imagine adding something like a cellulose polymer (HEC) to it would create a nice serum. 

[Camel]

Abdullah said:

She is not in direct sunlight even for 5 minutes per day.

The other main cause of melasma is hormones, but studies have shown that it can even be caused by LED lights from our phone, computer and TV screens. 

[Camel]

I could be wrong, but I suspect it’s the butters causing the flakes. Try making it with only liquid oils and see if you have the same problem. 

[Camel]

Here’s an interesting study: 

“Clinical studies of patients with melasma have shown that topical 20 percent azelaic acid is superior to 2 percent hydroquinone and as effective as 4 percent hydroquinone, without the latter’s undesirable side effects… Azelaic acid with tretinoin caused more skin lightening after three months than azelaic acid alone, and a higher proportion of excellent responders at the end of treatment.”

Based on this, I would suggest using azelaic acid in combination with a retinoid and daily sunscreen, but it’s always best to speak to a doctor first as they know what’s best for you. 

[Camel]

You should share the formula to receive the best advice. 

[Camel]

Does she use sunscreen? It could be caused by prolonged exposure to ultraviolet rays from the sun. Using a retinoid may help, as well as daily use of a sunscreen to prevent more of them. 

[Camel]

Karo_lina said:

First of all thank you for your reply. Just 2 more questions : what will work besides  niacinamide as the “hero ingredient”? What about non-tacky humectant ? will 2% of Propylene Glycol be enough?

Is there a reason you don’t want to use niacinamide (just curious)? It is a generally well-received ingredient and relatively inexpensive. 

You can take a look at commercial toners and see what their hero ingredients are and do something similar.

CeraVe’s toner uses ceramides, hyaluronic acid and niacinamide. 

Paula’s Choice toner uses niacinamide, hyaluronic acid and chamomile.

Ole Henriksen’s toner uses glycolic acid, lactic acid, witch hazel and licorice root. 

[Camel]

I didn’t experience a reduction in viscosity when adding salicylic acid at 2% to my face wash. I tried both of your methods, but used HPMC at 1 and 2% as the thickener (the 2% was actually a bit too thick but still good). They were just as viscous as the versions without the salicylic acid.

As you know, I’m not an expert, so I’m interested in what others will have to say. 

[Camel]

Karo_lina said:

Is it safe to use lactic acid while spraying it on your face? As for the hydrosol , 20% is the minimum amount that will give the face toner nice fragrance

Lactic acid is ideal for sensitive skin, as it is one of the more mild, gentle exfoliants. It can even be used during pregnancy and postpartum. You can find it in many commercial face toners, however, always be careful applying any product around the eyes. 

[Camel]

Syl said:

@Csears, reducing the thickeners like the clay will help. Keep in mind that you need to adjust the PH to 5, I also recommend a chelator. Last, silicone is not natural, but I read that it performs well for Afro-textured hair.  

Agree with the recommendation of a chelator.

@Csears, look into disodium edta or sodium phytate (for a more “natural” option but it will cost you significantly more).

They are used at very low percentages but are quite important in the preservation of your product.

[Camel]

SLS has been evaluated as safe-to-use in rinse-off applications by the CIR. The reason sulfates have a bad reputation is merely due to scaremongering tactics. In fact, sulfates are the most commonly used surfactants in commercial shampoos and body washes. 

I agree that if those percentages are in active surfactant matter, they should be reduced to a total around 10-15%. 

If you have been using the formula for two weeks and like it, there is probably no problem with it. 

[Camel]

SashaHayz said:

I tried an experiment similar with Coco betaine and decal glucoside I found that over night the guar gum formed a clump in the bottle. Any idea why ?

Can you share your procedure for making the product? Decyl Glucoside (and other glucosides) can be quite difficult to thicken and I would recommend using an anionic surfactant instead. 

[Camel]

Oils, butters and waxes are composed of multiple fatty acids with different melting points. If you leave a mixture to cool at room temperature, chances are that some of those fatty acids will bond together and re-solidify before the others have a chance to. This will result in a grainy product.

I believe the product should be continuously mixed until it is cool to prevent this from happening. If you lack the equipment to do this, you could try remelting your grainy batch and then (if the size permits) placing it in an ice-water bath under continuous stirring. This will allow the product to cool quicker and more evenly. 

[Camel]

@Perry, you are probably correct. Thank you for adding that; very interesting. 

[Camel]

Here’s my opinion:

Remove the oils and clay from the formula. The job of a shampoo is to remove oil and dirt from the scalp and adding oils to a shampoo will only reduce the efficacy of the surfactants. 

Remove the glycerin, panthenol, and oat protein. These will simply be washed off and rinsed down the drain. They will not have an effect on your hair in a shampoo.

Remove the cetearyl and cetyl alcohols. They are making your shampoo too thick and are also not necessary in a shampoo. 

Your revised formula would look something like this:

• Water - 68%
• Decyl Glucoside - 20% (might consider a better option)
• Coco Betaine - 10%
• Optiphen - 1%
• Guar Gum - 0.5%
• Tea Tree - 0.25%
• Lemongrass - 0.25%

Active Surfactant Matter: around 13.6 

Also, when sharing your formula, I recommend using percentages, rather than grams. 🙂

If you want to add a conditioning element to your shampoo, consider polyquaternium-10 at 0.5%.

I also recommend swapping out decyl glucoside for a different (perhaps anionic) surfactant, as I personally did not like using it in my experiments. See how you like it, first.