[Bobzchemist]

Also, Decyl Glucoside is a really bad emulsifier, to the point that it shouldn’t even be considered as part of the emulsification system.

Have you made formulas with and without the acids? What were the stability results?

[Bobzchemist]

Please read the posting guidelines

[Bobzchemist]

It may not be all that cost effective, but it is frequently possible (at least on a lab scale) to remove color from an ingredient by mixing it with activated carbon, heating gently, and then filtering out the carbon.

Whether or not this also gets rid of the contamination Bill refers to will be hard to determine. 

[Bobzchemist]

Thanks, Bill!

I gave myself a time limit of 5 minutes to look for info, but even if I had taken an hour, I wouldn’t have caught that. 

Not to shill for the PCPC, but this kind of computer-stymieing misspelling is exactly why a paper copy of the INCI dictionary is still valuable. Used copies of prior editions are available for a more reasonable price, and still have 80-90% of the information needed.

[Bobzchemist]

I’d bet actual money that if you wrote up your results, you could get them published, possibly in the SCC journal.

[Bobzchemist]

There is no formal training available anywhere for color matching cosmetics, btw. Anyone who does it professionally has learned through years of OTJ training.

[Bobzchemist]

Your only choice is to do it by eye, the same way chemists have been color matching for decades. It’s all learning by trial and error, mostly.

In my opinion, the only way to perfectly match someones skin tone is to have them present and evaluate on their skin as you go - there is no other way to get it right. Taking a close-up picture, printing it out, and then making sure that the printout matches their skin tone will give you a starting point that you’ll be able to take back to the lab and work on, but you’ll still need to tweak it in person.

[Bobzchemist]

pcpc buyers guide is always my starting point. The fact that the guide doesn’t recognize the second one as a valid INCI name makes me suspicious. It does list the first as being made by Unitex Chemical Corporation, which is now a part of Lanxess Corporation.

[Bobzchemist]

I like it. But I couldn’t be involved in something like that until after I retired - too much risk.

[Bobzchemist]

Doesn’t sound like it would be all that hard to determine this experimentally.

[Bobzchemist]

The first took me about 45 seconds to get a good lead, the second seems to be proprietary to Avon. Where have you been looking?

[Bobzchemist]

@Zink, pretty much every manufacturer has a production scheduler, and they should be able to tell you something like “your batch is scheduled to be made the week of May 5th, probably on Wednesday, but we may need to push it to Thursday or Friday” Then, once it’s made and has passed QC/Micro, the should be able to say “Your batch is scheduled to be filled and assembled during the latter half of June, and we will ship no later than July 15th” (Dates have bee pulled out of nowhere - timings will be different for every company)

Once they’ve given you those dates, they should at least notify you if the dates will change, and tell you why.

As far as responsiveness to questions is concerned? Most manufacturers are operating on a budget that’s squeezed very tightly - and that means that there probably isn’t much, if any, time to answer customer questions - and that time will also be prioritized towards the bigger customers. In other words, unless they’re making a bunch of money off of you, they’re not going to want to answer your questions, or even acknowledge your emails - because every time they do so, they are losing money.

So, like many other things, you get what you pay for. If you choose to work with a small or mid-sized manufacturer who has lower per-unit costs and smaller minimums, you are going to get minimal levels of customer service. If you pay more to work with a bigger manufacturer, you will get better customer service.

[Bobzchemist]

@Lily88, I am not trying to “dismiss, minimize or explain away these allegations”. I am trying to make this a general discussion, as @Perry requested.

While I sympathize with people’s feelings of being misled and ripped-off, as a general issue, I don’t think it’s fair to make accusations when the other party is not presenting their side.

I do think that both sides of these kind of issues are potentially able to harm the other, reputationally speaking. That is why I think it’s best to conduct dispute resolution privately. Otherwise, this could easily degenerate into the type of ugly argument that I believe has no place on this board.

Personally, I’m not thrilled that we have moved so far from a mutually-supporting  group that was primarily for cosmetic chemists and aspiring cosmetic chemists. I am distressed to hear that someone believes that it is possible to use this site to legitimize less than scrupulous behavior - that’s the sort of thing that makes me wish that we could restrict this group more strictly to professionals (and students).

In the interests of harmony here in the Forum, I’m going to make both of you an offer, @inspire78 and @Lily88. Post your project briefs (in a separate discussion, please) or you can even send them to me privately, and I’ll take a look and report back to you on what I think it will take to come up with a formula for you. If it’s not too much work, I’ll try to put something together for each of you without charge.

[Bobzchemist]

@Perry, I agree completely about not posting usernames, either on this or on any other location. 

This sort of dispute is best handled privately. Many of the accusations made in this discussion are very disturbing, and could be called defamatory, or even libelous, if they are the least bit exagerated. Additionally, we are only getting one side of the story, and I know that any business can have disgruntled customers.

I will point out that, for anyone pursuing legal action, making public complaints and accusations will hurt your legal case - they can be used as evidence against you as proof that you are maliciously trying to harm the consultant’s business, rather than striving for an appropriate resolution to your dispute.

Unfortunately, we don’t have a reputation recording system in the cosmetic industry the way that Ebay does. Come to think of it, it might be wise for low-dollar contracts like these to go through Ebay, which already has guarantees and an official dispute resolution process.

[Bobzchemist]

@Perry, I know that we are only getting one side of this story. Personally, I have both been burned by clients refusing to pay after work has been delivered to them, but also by consultants who refused to adequately complete the work that they had already been paid for. 

The closest I can come to a rationale this for situation, in my experience, is a client who determined, several months after her project had been completed, that the product I formulated was not stable enough long-term. Since long-term stability had not been specified in her project request, and since I couldn’t afford to re-do the entire project (as she insisted I do), I had no choice, from a business standpoint, but to tell her that she had already paid for and received a project result that matched what she’d asked for, and that I was no longer interested in doing business with her. In this situation, I’d been paid by the hour, rather than by the project, and I had a signed statement that the end product was satisfactory, so I wasn’t too worried. She didn’t persist in trying to contact me, but if she had, I would have stopped communicating at some point.

My strong suggestions, both for consultants and for customers, are to make completely sure that every  possible outcome is spelled out in an agreement between the client and the consultant, and then to make sure that work gets paid for as it is done. By breaking the payment, and the work involved, down into smaller chunks, both the client and the consultant have less at risk. I would also suggest that if a consultant is too busy to return emails or phone calls, you have probably chosen the wrong consultant, unless you have unlimited patience. The downside to choosing an always-helpful, always-responsive consultant is that they charge more, sometimes much more.

It’s a similar situation to what you would face if you were remodeling a house. Do you pay for the work upfront? Then what do you do if the work isn’t up to your expectations? But then, on the other hand, what do you do if the contractor says that you are being too picky and refuses to work with you anymore? Most contractors, like most consultants, are continually juggling multiple clients and multiple projects - it’s not always easy to find the right balance.

[Bobzchemist]

I’ve seen various natural gellants used - carrageenan, for example.

http://www.cargill.com/products/personal-care/ingredients/hydrocolloids/carrageenans/index.htm

Also:

http://www.cosmeticsandtoiletries.com/formulating/category/apdeo/premium-the-anatomy-of-a-formulamdashantiperspirant-sticks-soft-solids-and-gels-212202871.html

http://www.ulprospector.com/documents/1015737.pdf?bs=1022&b=106354&st=20

[Bobzchemist]

This can be a very tricky situation to navigate. Reputations are involved, both yours and the consultants. Having this devolve into a public “he said/she said” argument will do damage to both sides.

Ideally, this could be fixed without lawyers involved, but once you start talking about contracts and NDA’s, your best bet will be to use a lawyer and/or an arbitrator to resolve things privately.

[Bobzchemist]

In my limited knowledge of how these tests are actually conducted, I am pretty sure that a blender was involved…but that’s as far as I can go.

[Bobzchemist]

I hate to say it, but you need to get a lawyer involved. This shouldn’t cost a great deal of money, since all you’ll need to start with is a consultation and then a simple letter from the lawyer asking if the consultant intends to uphold his end of the contract or not. This should be enough to scare the chemist into at least contacting you. A few thousand dollars is too small an amount to justify a lawsuit using a lawyer, though.

The other alternatives are either filing your own lawsuit in small claims court, and/or public shaming, on this forum, LinkedIn, etc.

For future reference, it’s best (in my experience) to pay for results - i.e.,  a third of the amount initially, a third for samples, a third for the final formula, etc.

[Bobzchemist]

Well, maybe the first question I should have asked is why you are using sodium stearate as your gelling agent? There are easier ways to make a solid stick deodorant - they’re not used often because they are more expensive, and almost all deodorant manufacturers are very price sensitive.

[Bobzchemist]

@ledude, we got similar price quotes on biodegradability tests. If you find a less expensive lab, please let everyone here know.

In fact, can you tell us who gave you the $1,500 quote?

[Bobzchemist]

This sounds like it could be a great experiment using non-traditional emulsifiers.

Try 1 formulation using Pemulen TR-1, and one using a liquid crystal emulsifier like Olivem 1000 or Montanov 68 - see which one works better.

https://www.lubrizol.com/PersonalCare/Products/Pemulen/PemulenTR-1.html 

http://www.hallstar.com/pis.php?product=1o100 

http://www.seppic.com/cosmetic/o/w-emulsifier/montanov-68-@/view-401-seproduit.html 

[Bobzchemist]

Sorry, added the “s” at the end and I couldn’t find you anywhere…

[Bobzchemist]

Or should I just post a link?

[Bobzchemist]

Perry,

Can I get you to post a version of your spreadsheet I added a few features to?