[blacbird23]

@Cafe33 You have no idea how ready I am to include a polyquat and propanediol into the formulation, I do feel like I’m forcing it at this point. 

As for the glycerin I actually did increase it to 2% and had a sticky feeling, but maybe the propanediol should cut some of that feeling. 

Another forum actually suggested a thicker emollient like lanolin, petroleum or mineral oil and/or silicones for the moisture loss, I’m not really comfortable with petroleum, but I’m looking to bump up the Natrasil and possibly look into Dodecane. 

[blacbird23]

@Cafe33  I also thought 9% of BTMS-50 was over kill as well but doing my test from 5% all the way to 10% my sweet spot was actually 8%-10%. I would like to preface that I’m African American with very thick long curly hair with more than 50% shrinkage and my hair is permanently dyed.

 My hair loves thick and moisturizing products, and I’m trying to create that balance without overly greasy hair or bone dry.  But currently I’m seeing better results upon application the moisture just isn’t sticking around after the hair is dry.

 I currently have that very same formulation listed above in my hair and for the first time since formulating it’s starting to feel the way I want it to feel. I have crazy slip and moisture but, we’ll have to see after tomorrow and the day after once my hair is full dry. It takes like two days for my hair is completely dry, that’s how thick and low porosity my hair is. Which makes me think I need to consider PH much more. 

 

And @che@chemicalmatt to answer the question about the guar gum, is that it added the slip I couldn’t get from the emollients and the BTMS-50 I’m using the food grade version that’s nonionic. It has improved slip and detangling properties tremendously. Plus it gave me this weird texture that I really love, mix between a gel and a cream that defined the curls. 

[blacbird23]

Thank you for replying. Below I will attach one of the formulations I’ve been tinkering with. I’ve removed a lot of the more expensive ingredients until I can figure this and have been just playing with the BTMS-50 levels. So far 8%-10% feels the most conditioning for my hair but still I have no moisture retention after the water in the product dissipates. 

Water - 79.05%

Behentrimonium Methosulfate (and) Cetyl Alcohol (and) Butylene Glycol - 9% 

Cetearyl alcohol - 5% 

Coconut Oil - 4% 

Glycerin - 1.2% 

Guar Gum - 1% 

Optiphen - .75% 

This is the toned down version of my leave in conditioner, I’ve previously had butters, water soluble Shea butter, daikon seed oil, Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate, Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables and many other ingredients included but to no avail. 

I know the percentages may seem wonky but I’ve went through 10 previous tests of just BTMS-50 and water and that percentage felt the most moisturizing and had the most slip upon application but left behind little to no moisture. 

Benz3ne said:

What sort of ingredients have you got in there now? Ultimately, adding/substituting in some of the other ingredients might affect how it feels in the hair.
Humectants such as 1,3-propanediol and/or glycerine will help retain moisture. Sodium lactate I’ve seen crop up a few times in hand-washes for humectant properties, too.
Triglycerides will be emollient, and there are other modified oils that are water-soluble that might benefit available on the market.
Polyquat-7 is cationic so gives some slip. It’s also used as a film-former in some leave-on products so might provide added benefit in that regard. 

Keep going! One of the products (non-cosmetic) I helped with reached formulation #54 before it was reproduceable, fit-for-purpose and commercially viable. It sounds as though you’re nearly there and just need some tweaking.