[Benz3ne]

Cafe33 said:

As far as your ideas for a long lasting perfume, typically and especially when it comes to a rinse off product, you are looking at log P values - the higher the better. It’s water solubility basically determines how it is likely to be rinsed off down the drain or by contrast stick and bind to your skin. 

So in my opinion, your idea of a water soluble perfume is actually the exact opposite of what you need!      

A very valid and valuable point well made, thanks Cafe33. 
Considering this, I’m inclined to revise my thoughts and agree that more is more, as long as the amount of charcoal present (and subsequently the amount of essential/perfume oils present) don’t push allergenic compounds’ levels over any applicable thresholds.
Oil-based does sound like the way to go in this case, so my apologies for the misdirection above.

[Benz3ne]

The best bet here is to look at your problem from first principles again. 
Poly Suga-Mulse D9 (herein ‘PSMD9’) has HLB of 12-14 so falls into the realm of emulsifying agents/detergents, and may or may not foam. 20% oils is quite high, so that would need to be addressed with an appropriate amount of PSMD9 - how did you decide on 1g?
The more the surfactant is attempting to solubilise oils, the less it’ll be doing at lowering surface tension with respect to generating bubbles. 
I would guess that you need more surfactant in your system to solubilise that amount of oil. You might also need a bit faster mixing to create a suitable emulsion.
By all means read the TDS for PSMD9 - it stipulates between 2-7% required to solubilise 1% of the example essential oils, so 1g to 1.6oz isn’t going to suffice.

I think it’d be prudent to look at fundamentals of emulsifiers before approaching something like this. Or ask why you might need 20% oils (which are also unspecified). Or why you might need titanium dioxide despite not achieving a stable emulsion, or why you’re wanting to use a foam sprayer and also commenting on the mixture being too ‘watery’. 

This isn’t a personal attack so please don’t take offence. It’s just trying to highlight the areas that might be valuable to look so you can approach these types of projects in a broader sense going forwards. The more info we receive also, the better.

[Benz3ne]

Pattsi said:

How about a three roll mill?

A mill would be my suggestion also for grinding hard metal oxide pigments.
That, or buying more suitable particle size ingredients from source.

[Benz3ne]

steamedrice said:

Hi all amazing people,

Been reading up on LGN. Since Im not a professionally trained personal care formulator, but am a chemist involved in pharmaceutical compounding. Something is grabbing my attention recently… apparently LGN formulation can speed up wound healing since it mimics the skin lamellar structure? Is this true? If so, how?

Thanks all. 

It’s more focussed on the lipid arrangement of the skin surface so helping provide a barrier which, I guess, could aid wound healing as the barrier would be ‘accounted for’.
I guess if you couple that with wound healing drugs then there’s potential to speed up wound healing further.
My MChem project touched on angiogenesis in deep wounds and everything pointed towards drug-doped collagen as implants to speed up healing of deep/extensive wounds.

The article I read briefly on this was The Influence of Co-Surfactants on Lamellar Liquid
Crystal Structures Formed in Creams by Delaram Ahmadi et al.
Pharmaceutics 2020, 12, 864; doi:10.3390/pharmaceutics12090864

[Benz3ne]

amitvedakar said:

For face wash/ cleanser./ for charcoal face wash.

what type of perfume is preferable oil soluble or water soluble?

Is perfume performance pH dependent?

What factor matters for long lasting effect of Perfume? 

Any guidance?

Thank you.

I’d say water soluble but I could be mistaken. Charcoal likes to ‘mop up’ bits and pieces and, I believe has a greater affinity for hydrophobic portions. I.e., oily stuffs are more likely to be absorbed (I believe, worth double-checking).
Perfume may be pH dependent, that will depend on the aromachemical being utilised. This can always be checked with suppliers - for face-washes and suchlike at approx pH 5-6 you shouldn’t have much issue. The performance, i.e. how long it lasts, probably isn’t pH dependent however, unless the aromachemicals react negatively at low/high pH through dissociation or suchlike (but typically unlikely at mildly acidic pHs).
Factors - the aromachemicals in question. E.g. vanillin or oud can act as fixatives, and there are other non-scented fixatives that can improve duration of scent. Typically, more volatile moieties last less but project more (i.e. you’ll smell them further away). Lastly, concentration of perfume in the product will have an impact. The general rule is that the more concentrated, the lower the projection but the greater the longevity. This is also dependent on the volatility of the components, so this would be the aspect to investigate.

For what it’s worth, I personally wouldn’t want a face-wash that is as strong as a ‘typical’ eau de toilette. You’ll have to be mindful of allergenic ingredients also and their implications in labelling of your product.

[Benz3ne]

Blwyddyn Newydd da - happy new year!

[Benz3ne]

That amount of hydrogen peroxide wouldn’t be an issue, especially if you leave it to air dry thoroughly. That really is a miniscule concentration of H2O2 as prescribed by WHO formulae 1 and 2 for hand rub mixtures. WHO even stipulate that it is not efficacious for disinfecting hands at that concentration, but can aid reduction of spores in otherwise unclean containers in developing countries (for which the hand rub guides were made).
Glycerine, however, would leave a bit of a residue.
The ethanol should be denatured, so it might be worth checking what it’s denatured with - there might be bitrex (denatonium benzoate) that could leave some bitter residues but people shouldn’t be eating the lotion anyway…

Given all the above, and with it left to air-dry, it should be just fine for disinfecting glassware.  

[Benz3ne]

Microformulation said:

@Belassi Your posts have been handy. I was contacted by a Vet last week with some questions. They had a dog that had some HORRIBLE adverse reactions to an Oat Shampoo. Since there is less clarity in vet ingredient decks, the deck included “freshness preservers” as a claimed ingredient. I followed it up and it was MIT/MCT.

This has made me well up, and I’m not a particularly outwardly emotional person by large.
Losing my dogs is one of my absolute worst nightmares. If stories like this don’t open one’s eyes to the potential issues surrounding foodstuffs and/or pet hygiene, and the products therein, I don’t know what would.
I can see why this was met with such a public following.

[Benz3ne]

I agree, that’s quite a lot.
You might actually have better luck with some of the more ‘typical’ emulsifiers/emulsifier blends - e.g. BTMS 50 or similar. Granted, you’re more likely to make a cream but you should be able to incorporate larger quantities.
Are you heating the mixture in order to form an emulsion or doing it at room temp?

I’ll second EVChem’s question - why so much?

[Benz3ne]

PeiHoong said:

@Benz3ne really? but so sorry i dont have any device can help to check on this…maybe i will try to put the pigment in oven at 50C for few hours before milling them? 

You can do it without much equipment. Desiccators are inexpensive but otherwise yes, weigh first, then oven with open front at 50°C for a few hours, then weigh again. More resolution in weighing is better as gives more detail.

[Benz3ne]

helenhelen said:

Benz3ne said:

Could it be that the combination of ethanol and glycerin aids penetration of glycerin? Or that xanthan forms a film and retains glycerin, so re-rinsing is just wetting and allowing that film to form again, or ‘rehydrate’ the humectant?

Yes it must be something like that. I should probably try a very basic gel with just glycerin and xanthan to see if I get the same result.

That sounds like a nice approach. I’m curious as to how much ethanol is actually in there, whether it’s expressed as 75% v/v or w/w, or whether their raw ethanol was a lower concentration to begin with i.e. DEB96 vs DEB100.
My understanding is that xanthan gum will precipitate with higher quantities of ethanol (i.e. solubility drops). Unless there are functionalised or high-viscosity xanthan gums available that I’m unaware of…

[Benz3ne]

steamedrice said:

Thank you so much for your reply!

As with the Bosisto’s Tea Tree product, the ingredient list only list Melaleuca oil as the sole ingredient. I know there might be other excipient ingredients not listed. But taking the “cost” question out of the equation, I want to know if its feasible to take an off the shelf product and reformulate it for a commercial product?

Because some raw ingredients (eg. plant extracts) also come as a solution or oil that has preservatives in it anyway which is often not listed in the final product.

Basically taking someone elses work & add your midas touch to it & repackage to sell it @ a higher margin. 

Yes, it probably is possible, but I don’t know where you’d stand with your country’s regulations. 
You might have to prove that, e.g., you conform to good practices as laid out by your country’s regulatory authority. If you can’t prove that the ingredients you’re using are conforming to that guidance then it might result in your product being unsellable (though if the product you aim to use is on the shelf it might suffice as evidence?). 
Similarly, if the product has ingredients that are not listed for whatever reason then you could not feasibly include them in your safety assessments as you pointed out above. 
Lastly, if there are trademarks on the product you might not know about them just from observing the product packaging, which could create a legal headache.

It seems to me like a lot of guesswork just to get a product on the shelf. I’d rather have control over the entirety of the formulation so you can aim to continue if, again e.g., the product you’re using in your formulation is discontinued. 

You’re very welcome for the reply.  

[Benz3ne]

steamedrice said:

Dear all,

I have a question regarding adding off the shelf product into ones formulation.

If I have Bosisto’s Pure Tea Tree oil, can I add it to my “Tea tree cream” formula and have it as an INCI name “Melaleuca Alternifolia oil?”

What problems should I consider when I do this? Stability issues? Legality problems?

Reason for this question is because I’m trying to formulate an hand repair cream with chamazulene (Chamomile extract) and I cant get hold of blue tansy oil (apparently highest content of chamazulene) so thinking of buying blue tansy oil off the shelf to incorporate into my formula.

thank you!

How are the ingredients listed on the pure tea tree oil? Could you perhaps contact them and have them supply it to you as a raw ingredient? 

The other question to consider is why do you need the highest content of chamazulene? Have you tried it with less chamazulene containing species and if so how notable were the differences?

I’d have said if you’ve a good relationship with an essential oil supplier they’d be able to offer insight into how much is good value for money, or whether you need blue tansy, or not, or whether they stock it!

Sorry about the large amount of speculation, but really you’re paying over the odds if you’re buying a product that has both manufacturer’s margin and reseller’s margin on it, so that could make your product unprofitable or unsellable. 

[Benz3ne]

helenhelen said:

Thank you for your comments @chemicalmatt, @Perry and @Benz3ne.

@Perry for me, “moisturised” means skin that doesn’t look and feel like parchment paper, and the comfort lasts through a wash instead of being rinsed off. The sanitiser made my hands look and feel like a normal person’s hands. I just don’t seem to have any natural moisture or oil going to my hands and feet!

Could it be that the combination of ethanol and glycerin aids penetration of glycerin? Or that xanthan forms a film and retains glycerin, so re-rinsing is just wetting and allowing that film to form again, or ‘rehydrate’ the humectant?

[Benz3ne]

One thing that has sprung to mind for me - are any of your pigments damp at all? Do you have a means of checking loss on drying or desiccating them?

If they’re damp then it could lead to them being more difficult to incorporate, especially if the majority of the stick mixture is oil-based.

[Benz3ne]

Good point made by Perry about perception. I made a little bit of hand wash in work and some colleagues kindly offered to try it out. They said it made their hands feel ‘soft’ whereas I perceived it as ‘drying’ (though I had tried approximately 20 minor variations that day so probably had something to do with it…).

[Benz3ne]

I’ve used Melbec, Oxford Biosciences and MSL (microbiological services limited) here in the UK for work and all have been fine. 
You’ve links for two of the three above, and here’s MSL’s: https://msl.io/
They’ve all been affable and professional, so I’ve tried staying in touch where possible.

[Benz3ne]

Achieve said:

I think you have great formula, merely add 2% Propylene Glycol and then see the difference…. 

Very kind, thank you. It’s pretty basic but it feels nice on the hands and isn’t too drying in my opinion. It’s been well received by colleagues who have tested it, so I’m fairly happy with it.
I’ll try with a little PG and see what differences that makes, thank you!

[Benz3ne]

Leo said:

Anyone have ideas on new and unique topical delivery methods for powders (no water).

There’s no context, and it’s quite difficult to interpret your question.
Topical ‘delivery’ methods for powders - brushing, dusting (talc type bottles), aerosol?

[Benz3ne]

You haven’t said what else you have in your shower gel. 
At the moment it is complete guesswork.

[Benz3ne]

chemicalmatt said:

You may thicken and stabilize SLS/SLES and other shampoos with Synthalen W400 or W2000 from 3V Sigma also, and these do not require the back-acid build as does Lubrizol’s Carbopol SF-1. Jus’ sayin’

Good point well made.
Have also had reasonable success with Aculyn 88, but admittedly haven’t done much with it yet.

[Benz3ne]

I think Carbopol SF-1 does a decent enough job of thickening in the presence of surfactants, off the top of my head. Might be worth trying that.
As @Fekher mentions, surfactant systems can be thickened with NaCl so it’d be worth looking into that.

[Benz3ne]

Bill_Toge said:

it’s the product itself drying out - the root cause of the problem is that once the product has been dispensed, there’s a little bit of it left in the pump, and the bit that’s exposed to the air dries out over time, causing the gel effect

the best thing I can suggest is to try different pump designs

This was my assumption. The curveball for me is seeing similar pump designs where this hasn’t occurred (with some shop-bought formulations). I just had the (albeit dim) lightbulb moment of, if there’s more humectant/hygroscopic components, can it remain more ‘fluid’/less dry until the next dispense? I’ll have to look at what other pump designs are available to me to try out. 
Thanks Bill, for taking the time to come here and comment.

[Benz3ne]

On top of the above, what really makes it ‘better’ against CoV-19? 

Ethanol is found to reliably kill coronaviruses (and other viruses) as published by Siddharta et al in 2017 with concentrations as low as 40% - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28453839/

As much as BKC is a solidly performing biocide, the ease of formulation and production of ethanol-based disinfectants reigns supreme.

[Benz3ne]

PeiHoong said:

@Benz3ne The three iron oxide used is from the same grade and hence have similar particle size. The same combination is used in other formulation and all work well, only doesn’t work on this formula. Is that means that premix the iron oxide with talc will help the dispersion? 

Not necessarily but it has helped on occasion for me. I would say try it with the black iron oxide added first, mixed until homogeneous and add the yellow and red iron oxides afterwards and see what happens.
I hope you’re well and safe also.  

It might be worth clarifying with your supplier about particle size. I have seen some variations from same suppliers before. If you’re milling it shouldn’t have that much impact. I’d go with my first suggestion - try the black first and then add the other pigments.