[belassi]

It might be OK to drink but I don’t need any added minerals in my products!

[belassi]

I’m very familiar with the Glucamate VLT. First, the PEG-7 Glyceryl Cocoate will negatively impact viscosity, I would replace it with glycerin. 

The menthol and fragrance always will reduce viscosity, you’ll have to increase the VLT to compensate. VLT does not have a linear thickening profile. As you approach the necessary amount, small additions cause large viscosity increases.

I found that using 1% of cocamide MEA allowed 2.75% VLT. More MEA than 1% precipitated after several days.

[belassi]

Agree with Mark. Actually I think it was Mark who advised me to complement the odour of TTO with herbals. I did that and got rave reviews for the aroma combination.

[belassi]

Frankly I give no credence whatsoever to any company selling a shampoo made with African “black soap”, I know exactly what that is and how it’s made, and in a hard water area will give horrible results. And as for this:

“Step Three: Magnetic Stone & Ceramic Magnets: This magnetic field purifies the water’s structure and drops the surface tension of the water while boosting its solubility”

LIES and NONSENSE

[belassi]

Who makes that?

[belassi]

See the Sulfate-free Facial Wash Gel
with Salicylic Acid
US-00536-80-44 on UL Prospector. It’s what you’re looking for.

[belassi]

If you dissolve 1% sodium citrate in the water, I think you might find that solves your problem.

[belassi]

It’s going back some years now but as I recall, I went through a period when I was very frustrated by the difficulties of creating a sulphate-free shampoo with the properties I wanted, which were basically good foam, thick, lots of slip, long-flow, luxurious cushiony hand feel, plus of course zero irritation to mucous membranes, kind to the scalp, and leave the hair easy to manage. I still have a lab full of various 5Kg sample containers of surfactants that I no longer use, such as Plantapon LGC Sorb, Dehyton AB 30, and so on. I found it much more difficult to learn how to design surfactant and conditioner systems than skin care products. Many many more fails.

[belassi]

I’ve just discovered it is natural spring water and so has minerals in it. I’ll have to get my ion-exchange column installed. I checked other water - and guess what? For instance, coca-cola sell one called Ciel. And they ADD minerals to it “to make it taste better” (hell, what else can we expect from a company like they are?) So, I now have to say: DON’T TRUST R.O. WATER - they may be adding all kinds of crap.

[belassi]

Essential Oils. Which contain a huge variety of things, such as terpenes for instance. I wouldn’t use essential oils in an anti-acne product except for specific ones known to have an anti-acne benefit, such as tea tree oil or thyme oil. But with benzoyl peroxide? I don’t think so. 

[belassi]

Been wondering… am I the only one that hates polysorbate? I don’t use it at all these days. Do not like the tacky feeling it produces.

[belassi]

Well, I think I already said as much as I can … 

[belassi]

Bob is absolutely correct. “Foam” - fluffy, creamy, large bubble, small bubble, flash, long-lasting, cushion … many different parameters.

[belassi]

Can’t resist jumping in here because I think I have some relevant experience.

1. This looks like the kind of product I would see on ETSY made by an individual. Why? One reason: the “preservative” (grapefruit seed extract). It is not a proper preservative. The real reason why the product doesn’t go “off” is almost certainly that the other components are supplied in a preserved state.

2. This is a sulphate-free formulation. I do not see any thickener in there. Either the LOI is incomplete or the shampoo is like water.

3. No idea what “coco coco protein” might be.

4. All those extracts are a waste of money in a rinse-off product. Better in the conditioner.

To answer your questions:

 is it best to make my own surfactant, or buy a ready-made base?

- if you want a sulphate-free shampoo you will probably have to design and test your own, it depends to a large degree what surfactants you have available in your area. For instance I have a local Kao Chemicals distributor who also is one of my fragrance suppliers, so I use a Kao product as my primary surfactant. 

There are bases available I believe, but none in my country for sure. One item I found of probable interest to you was Plantasil Micro. (Dicaprylyl ether, decyl glucoside and glyceryl oleate.) the oleate gives a refattening action. There’s also Plantapon LGC Sorb (alquil glucoside). I have that and it’s OK but I don’t use it because I have better-performing surfactants available. 

If you don’t necessarily need a sulphate free formula then I highly recommend Plantarem APB an ALS/ALeS/lauryl glucoside and DEAL all-purpose blend. Very mild indeed and terrific foam and easy to thicken. An alternative, similar, Texapon KD SO3. It’s great for shampoos, body wash and hand soaps.

“More moisturizing” - add glycerin or Glucam E20

[belassi]

I’d use a water-dispersible silicone instead, such as Silsense DW-18, with a standard carbomer such as Ultrez-20 or 940, depending on the sensorial desired. Problem solved.

[belassi]

Thanks Mark. Salt has no effect in this formulation. The CAPB is just the  secondary surfactant, it has no thickening effect to speak of. I’m hoping the BASF rep is going to call me, she has my number. Don’t understand why some but not all BASF materials are available.

[belassi]

I’m familiar with the ball mill, myself, in which masses of steel balls tumble. 5 metres in diameter, 6 metres long, and making a sound that’s hellish. The cement industry!

[belassi]

As an engineer I can imagine designing a coaxial nozzle, so that the active in the ribbon would be protected from the clear by a very thin film, such as we see in these encapsulated actives one finds in shampoos.

[belassi]

I decided to focus on the hair removal product first, although the dipotassium salt appears to have possible benefits for therapeutic products e.g. acne, skin lightening … so I’m going to order both the 12% and 95% concentrations of the pure acid. I guess I’ll be able to formulate trial preparations in a couple of weeks or less. I can’t shake the feeling “Surely someone else must have tried this? Am I wasting time and money?”

[belassi]

Very useful idea. To be useful it would have to be calibrated as to incidence and severity.

[belassi]

Do what in particular?

[belassi]

Yes, Prospector shows TT documentation as not available for Mexico. 

!@#$%&*!

[belassi]

Well, I’m talking to two Chinese suppliers at the moment and prices are OK. One of them offers the dipotassium salt and the other, the acid at 14% concentration which is pretty much what I need. Probably I will obtain supplies of both.

[belassi]

Yes I’d like to hear Mark’s opinion. I did the cost work-up and based on a probable 0.5% usage I could reduce my thickener costs by about 50%, but I’d have to keep importing the root powder. That’s OK at our present company size but as we grow it would become a problem I think.

It’s really annoying that the BASF outlets stock the VPC thickener but not the TT. The VPC is specifically for household products such as acidic toilet bowl cleaners, I have no interest in that area.

[belassi]

The DEA serves to shift the salt curve to the left. Typically 2%.

I personally wouldn’t use more than about 7% SLS. Probably could start with 5% SLS, 6% SLES, 7% Decyl glucoside and then adjust the thickness by adding CAPB.