Aniela
Forum Replies Created
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This discussion might help https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/stabilizing-h2o2-containing-oxidant/#post-222434
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Just finished listening this week’s episode on The Beauty Brains podcast, and Valerie’s answer to the “dupes” subject sums it up very well: “In every product you’re still using someone else’s work[…]. Also Perry’s answer is true “it’s all a subtle twist to something that’s already been done”. So yeah, in the end it’s all about marketing, as @Graillotion said.
Bottom line? Most of us (all?) do it, at least as a starting point.
Also, if you’re to be fair, “big brand theft” is no different from “small brand theft”. There is a good part in this, though: it makes one push one’s creative boundaries, right?
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Some things you could consider:
1. You use the maximum of 5% polymer- did you try less, like 2-3%? Same white “flakes” appeared?
2. “application on hair (from a regular plastic mist spray bottle)”- the regular bottles spray a way bigger “drop” than the ones made for perfume or hair sprays, hence the hair gets wetter, and also the white “flakes”
3. The solubilizer at 4% plus essential oils at 0.6% only add to the issue of drying slower. If needed, I would use just enough fragrance to cover the smell of the active materials. Also, people might use a perfume that clashes with the scent of the essential oils you’ve used
4. Herbal extracts at 8%- if they are glycerin-based, the glycerin might contribute to the white “flakes” you see after drying. I assume the extracts are there because of a trend, so you could go for 1% or less
Finally, I would get hold of a proper spray-bottle, and make a sample with just water and 2-3% polymer, then take it from there. Or keep the bottle you have and make a sample with water, ethanol (the manufacturer recommends max 10% ethanol with the polymer you use), and the polymer to see how it works.
PS- I didn’t work with MaizeCare Clarity Polymer, but I do wonder if it is intended only for clear hair gels, or also for hair sprays- DOW presents sample formulations with it only for hair gel, hence my doubt.
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I do not make them, but silicone or acrylate polymers used to enhance water resistance can have a greasy or sticky feel. Personally, I would “play” with the 2 above, and see how it goes. Also, the %s of the sunscreen-agents can lead to that. This might help with the latter https://www.reddit.com/r/SkincareAddiction/comments/ls706p/percentages_of_uv_filters_for_european_sunscreens/
PS- Does your benchmark use the same emulsifier system? I find it a bit odd, but again, I’m not familiar with making sunscreens.
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Hi, as I’m not familiar with the ingredients used, I’ve asked ChatGPT:
Electrolyte Sensitivity of the Polymer
Polymulse (Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate Crosspolymer) is sensitive to cationic surfactants like Quaternium-18. These can interfere with polymer hydration and gel network formation, leading to clumping or precipitation.
Order of Addition
These polymers must be fully dispersed and neutralized before introducing surfactants, oils, or actives—especially cationics or anything with cloud point behavior (like trideceth-6/12).
pH and Neutralization
While you’re keeping the final pH at 5.5, it’s crucial to neutralize the polymer at the right time and pH range (6–7) before adding other materials. If neutralization occurs in the presence of Silsoft, hydration fails.
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This reply was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by Aniela.
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This reply was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by
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Apart from what Dr. Phil said (too harsh, no way “chemical free”, plus lack of preservative), I hope you’re aware that’s an antiperspirant, not a deodorant.
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It has to do with the organic pigment used. It is said to be common with lakes (an insoluble colourant produced by precipitating a soluble dye onto an insoluble substrate), and not seen with other pigments: lakes are affected by an inadequate pH when added in the formulation, which results in the soluble dye re-forming, a condition known as “bleeding”- Chapter 6, Discovering Cosmetic Science (2021), Royal Society of Chemistry
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Hi,
This might help with choosing the enhancer: https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/26/4/1555
mdpi.com
Niacinamide, a derivative of vitamin B3, has been shown to reduce skin pigmentation (i.e., acting as a brightening agent) and inflammatory responses such as dermatitis and acne vulgaris. However, niacinamide is a hydrophilic compound and poor partitioning to the lipid … Continue reading
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Love this- it’s more my cup of tea than the soaps you’re so passionate about.
I know that losing a business hurts, and I also know that the passion doesn’t die with the business, so I hope soon enough, you’ll share another exciting experiment, only this time, a recent one????
PS- nothing against soaps, just not my passion
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Just for fun, I’ve asked chatgpt, and surprisingly (to me), the answer makes sense:
Most Likely Causes of Pink Discoloration:
1. Geogard ECT
INCI: Benzyl Alcohol, Salicylic Acid, Glycerin, Sorbic Acid
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Why: This is a broad-spectrum preservative that is well known to sometimes cause pink, red, or orange discoloration in formulations — especially in alkaline or moisture-prone environments, or when interacting with metal ions or certain surfactants.
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Mechanism: The sorbic acid in it can undergo oxidation or microbial degradation, especially when pH is not sufficiently low (ideally below 5.5), leading to color changes.
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Why: This antifungal active is typically a white to off-white powder, but can discolor in the presence of certain surfactants, preservatives, or pH shifts. There have been rare reports of it contributing to color shifts in formulations, especially when not fully solubilized or evenly dispersed.
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While honey is usually amber to golden, in combination with heat or certain preservatives, it can sometimes darken or react, though pink is not the usual result.
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Generally colorless to pale yellow, but can oxidize over time, especially with exposure to heat, light, or metal ions, potentially interacting with other ingredients.
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Usually used as pH adjusters. Not direct causes, but can shift the pH, affecting the behavior of color-reactive ingredients like Geogard ECT.
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Storage Conditions:
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Heat, humidity, or light can accelerate discoloration reactions.
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Metal Contamination: From manufacturing equipment, containers, or water can catalyze discoloration (especially iron, copper).
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Microbial Growth: If preservation is not strong enough, microbial contamination can cause pink/reddish growth — though Geogard ECT typically handles this unless underdosed or pH is off.
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Suggested Next Steps:
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Check pH — keep it below 5.5 if using Geogard ECT.
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Remove Geogard ECT in a test batch to see if the pinking stops.
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Protect from light and air — store in opaque, airtight containers.
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Use chelating agents (e.g., disodium EDTA) to bind metal ions.
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Evaluate raw materials (especially honey and ketoconazole) for any color or odor changes.
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This reply was modified 1 month ago by Aniela.
2. Ketoconazole
Possible but Less Likely Contributors:
3. Manuka Honey
4. Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E)
5. Citric Acid / Sodium Citrate
Other Factors to Consider:
1. “I really don’t see other products like this on the market (besides sucragel based formulas - I’ve tried these and I don’t like them) which makes me wonder why.”
Here are some of the ones on the market https://incidecoder.com/ingredients/peg-20-glyceryl-triisostearate and also Paula’s choice, which sells this https://www.paulaschoice.com/omegaand-complex-cleansing-balm/338-3380.html
You can check further for your other PEG.
2. “Is there a contraindication with the surfactants or something that makes this difficult to do?”- not familiar with PEGs, so can’t help you here.
3. “What about adding something like cetearyl alcohol?”- based on the function of PEG-20 glyceryl triisostearate, adding cetearyl alcohol will make your product more “draggy” and less cleansing. If you’re asking about just oils and cetearyl alcohol, that won’t be a nice product to use, nor it will clean as you’d want to.
It is about drugs, not cosmetics, and it’s about India, not the EU.
“The Drugs Technical Advisory Board (DTAB) has agreed with a report from its sub-committee headed by Dr Nilima Kshirsagar, which declared 16 fixed dose combinations (FDCs) as irrational and recommended for prohibition as these may pose risk to the human beings[…] The sub-committee collected information from the manufacturers of these drugs and examined various aspects related to them, before submitting its recommendation to the Board[…] As reported earlier, the drug regulator banned around 156 FDCs, including pain relief combinations, vitamins, antibiotics, among others last year, based on recommendation from the expert committee[…] According to earlier reports, the list of 16 FDCS considered as irrational include combination of acetyl salicylic acid with ethoheptazine; aloe extract with aloe extract with allantoin, alpha tocopherol acetate, D-panthenol and vitamin A; Aloe extract with vitamin E, dimethicone and glycerine; aloe vera with jojoba oil and vitamin E; aloe vera with orange oil; aloe vera with jojoba oil, wheat germ oil and tea tree oil; aloe vera with vitamin E and herbal; dicyclomine with paracetamol and clidinium bromide; dicyclomine with paracetamol, clidinium bromide and chlordiazepoxide; gliclazide with chromium picolinate; paracetamol with lignocaine; amoxicillin with serratiopeptidase and lactobacillus sporogenes; amoxicillin with cloxacillin, lactic acid bacillus and serrapeptase; amoxicillin and serratiopeptidase; cefadroxil and probenecid; and cefurosime with serratiopeptidase.” - top news, pharmabiz.com, India.
It would have been great to have access to such articles. Maybe some day…
It’s not a total miss though, as they provided the references, so I still have something.
Thank you for posting this.
I would start questioning the order on the ingredients list: the one on their website is this “Salt, Citric Acid, Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate, Water, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Sodium Benzoate, Sodium Lauroyl Sarcosinate, Sodium Salicylate, Fragrance.“, which obviously it’s not accurate, as the first listed ingredient should not be salt.
The list you’ve provided, again, might be just a “convenient “variation, and not the real order of the ingredients. Unfortunately that’s a pretty common practice when a company is not big- they think only the big players are exposed…
You could ignore the order on the list and just make a body wash with CAPB as a secondary surfactant, and SCI+SLS as the primary ones, and see how that goes.
That aside, the liquid form of CAPB comes with salt. The one I use has 37% active, and 5.8-7.3% sodium chloride, so you’ll have around 1.8-2% salt if using 30% CAPB, and that can already be too much for the surfactant system you’ve used- hence the system “doesnt respond to Sodium Chloride at all - no thickening, no matter what I do”. There’s also the possibility that I’m thinking according only to my experience and not to the real chemistry, so I’ll pass this ball to @ketchito ????
It’s good to know the “robot” is sometimes useful 😉
I wish I could help, but aside from testing the pigment from a different supplier, no brilliant ideas…
Hi, I’m so happy you chimed in😃
I’m curious, did ChatGPT give a good answer?
Thank you.
This is the procedure recommended (ChatGPT, not me)
Then using a permeation enhancer is a good idea.
If it’s for acne, it’s fine. The penetration is needed for having an effect on skin pigmentation.
Hi Phil,
I only said it makes sense, I didn’t say everything it’s true????
I know that Geogard ECT is not broad spectrum, I guess it’s my fault that I left the whole answer given by chatgpt.
Still, I was surprised, as I was expecting a colossally-wrong answer.
Thank you, indeed.
Thank you, @chemicalmatt, it’s clear now.
May I ask you here something unrelated, please?
I’ve read all your answers regarding stearamidopropyl dimethylamine (I’ve got some and I want to play with it), and I’m not sure when/which phase to add the neutralisation agent.
In Evonik’s sample formulations they use citric acid added in the water phase, but in one of your answers you said that the best next-thing after glutamic acid would be lactic acid. If I’m not wrong, lactic acid is not heat-stable, so would it work if added in the cool-down, please? Or do I have to go with citric acid?
Thank you.
“Since sodium chloride is explicitly listed in their ingredients, they must have added extra salt in the formulation.”- there’s the possibility that the less-than-1%-line starts with sodium chloride, and also the possibility that they used CAPB powder.
Thank you for the heads-up.
Does that leave the salt present in the liquid CAPB as the “culprit”?