[Aniela]

I would start questioning the order on the ingredients list: the one on their website is this “Salt, Citric Acid, Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate, Water, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Sodium Benzoate, Sodium Lauroyl Sarcosinate, Sodium Salicylate, Fragrance.“, which obviously it’s not accurate, as the first listed ingredient should not be salt.

The list you’ve provided, again, might be just a “convenient “variation, and not the real order of the ingredients. Unfortunately that’s a pretty common practice when a company is not big- they think only the big players are exposed…

You could ignore the order on the list and just make a body wash with CAPB as a secondary surfactant, and SCI+SLS as the primary ones, and see how that goes.

That aside, the liquid form of CAPB comes with salt. The one I use has 37% active, and 5.8-7.3% sodium chloride, so you’ll have around 1.8-2% salt if using 30% CAPB, and that can already be too much for the surfactant system you’ve used- hence the system “doesnt respond to Sodium Chloride at all - no thickening, no matter what I do”. There’s also the possibility that I’m thinking according only to my experience and not to the real chemistry, so I’ll pass this ball to @ketchito 😇

[Aniela]

Hi,

It’s not clear why you listed Marie’s (humblebeeandme) formula in your initial post.

Have you made that and you’re not happy about the outcome?

[Aniela]

question 1 :

I’ve made such an emulsifier based on LisaLise’s article a few years ago. Her proposed formula is:

Glycerin 50-55%

Oil of choice 20-25%

Sucrose stearate HLB 15 10%

Water 10%

question 2 :

I’m not familiar with trihydroxystearin or dextrin palmitate, but to thicken my hair-serum/other oil serums, I usually go with cera bellina.

[Aniela]

I would only say that there is no such thing as “cosmetic supplement”- IF a supplement works, it will enhance one’s health, therefore would have skin-effects as well.

…but there is such thing as marketing and gullible people.

[Aniela]

Hi Natasha,

First of all, I do not think that a “silicone replacement” will necessarily act as a real silicone.

Also, a 16% of oil might work in a conditioner bar, but I highly doubt that will work in a cream-conditioner.

Apart from the 600+ Forum discussions on “conditioner”, you might find these two articles interesting/useful:

https://chemistscorner.com/what-conditioner-ingredient-work-the-best/

https://labmuffin.com/busting-hair-conditioner-myths-build-up-silicones-weighing-hair-down-etc/

[Aniela]

Hi,

Some things come to mind:

1. the fragrance gets somehow “trapped” as the addition of NaCl changes the CMC, and a much larger % of fragrance is needed to overcome that;

2. I would do an knock-out experiment in regards to the three added ingredients- one of them might exacerbate the detergent smell in your formula.

3. I’m still learning, so maybe @ketchito can chime in with some real ideas🙂

[Aniela]

Hi,

What does the manufacturer say in its guidance that prompted your question? -regardless of how experienced people are, it is impossible for them to know all the details about every ingredient out there.

I do not use it but I assume adding it under 40C is a sensible choice.

Also, I assume you already know that it won’t penetrate the skin, so a good combination of humectants might/will do a better job.

[Aniela]

Apparently not the seaweed as such, but some isolates are beneficial for quite a few skin-concernes:

https://www.mdpi.com/2673-9410/4/2/15

mdpi.com

Cosmeceutical Significance of Seaweed: A Focus on Carbohydrates and Peptides in Skin Applications

The term ‘cosmeceutical’ refers to cosmetic products that offer medicinal or drug-like benefits. Marine algae are rich sources of bioactive compounds, particularly carbohydrates and peptides, which have gained attention for their potential in cosmeceuticals. These compounds are abundant, safe, and … Continue reading

[Aniela]

Hi Natasha,

You say you’ve “checked the FDA list of approved colorants for cosmetics (making sure they are safe for use around the eyes), and I found that only these colors are allowed: Blue 1, Red 40, Yellow 5, Green 5″.

As I understand, you’re making a shampoo, therefore the restrictions for “Eye Area” definitely don’t apply for shampoos, they are in place only for products applied in the eye area. So, you have access to more colours than you thought, and this should/might make your task easier. I’m not in US, but I’m pretty sure you should only look at the “External Use” column.

PS- there are quite a few specialists on this forum with a vast knowledge in shampoos, but because you said “color-cosmetics” aka make-up, none of them has chimed in; I suggest you post again your question, under a title containing the word “shampoo”, and for more help, also share the results of your experiments to date.

[Aniela]

If it’s of any help, the EU says “All ingredients have to be labelled on the packaging. An incomplete listing of ingredients is
considered to be misleading.
However, there is a provision whereby certain materials are not considered as ingredients. The
relevant extract from Article 19.1(g) states:
“For the purpose of this Article, an ingredient means any substance or mixture intentionally used
in the cosmetic product during the process of manufacturing.
The following shall not, however, be regarded as ingredients:
(i) Impurities in the raw materials used;
(ii) Subsidiary technical materials used in the mixture but not present in the final product.”
These definitions are reasonably clear. Subsidiary materials not present in the final product
would include filtration aids and decolourising agents, both of which could be added during
manufacturing but would subsequently be removed.“

[Aniela]

Hi,

Regarding “vegan”, you should find details on the technical documents of your ingredients: usually they will say “vegan certified”.

Regarding the big BS of “cruelty-free”, you should read this (other sources available if one really wants to know) https://chemistscorner.com/cruelty-free-cosmetics-are-they-really-free-from-cruelty/

chemistscorner.com

Cruelty Free Cosmetics - Are they really free from cruelty? - Chemists Corner

Hello and welcome to Hot Topics from Chemists Corner, the show where I pick some topic about the cosmetic industry that caught my eye and…

[Aniela]

“Since sodium chloride is explicitly listed in their ingredients, they must have added extra salt in the formulation.”- there’s the possibility that the less-than-1%-line starts with sodium chloride, and also the possibility that they used CAPB powder.

[Aniela]

Thank you for the heads-up.

Does that leave the salt present in the liquid CAPB as the “culprit”?

[Aniela]

Thank you🙂

[Aniela]

Why would you “doubt the legitimacy of it”?

Did you notice that this is an anhydrous product?

As a side note, the 40% urea ointment used for chemical avulsion of fungal-infected nails, is also anhydrous.

[Aniela]

Hi,

Yes, there is a “rule of thumb” which works as a start for most emulsifiers, and that’s exactly what you have read: 1:4 (emulsifier to oils). Meaning one can start there, and then tweak according to what one wants to achieve.

Regarding the use of APG, you have your answer from @ketchito in the thread above.

Anyway, considering the science, I wouldn’t continue on this route: when making an emulsion/cream, the obvious choice is an emulsifier, not a surfactant.

[Aniela]

All right, but APG is still vague: there are quite a few of them.

Also, wouldn’t that be a foaming emulsion?

@ketchito , would you be so kind to make some light here, please?

[Aniela]

Had to google APG😇- the ones BASF makes have “excellent foaming and cleansing properties”, aka a proper surfactant.

So why APG in a cream as the main emulsifier?

[Aniela]

To clarify, “it won’t make a big difference” was meant for the skin-feel, not the stability.

[Aniela]

Considering you’ll reduce the fatty alcohols and add more shea, it shouldn’t make a big difference.

What’s the INCI name of your emulsifier?

[Aniela]

Second time is a charm😉

[Aniela]

Yey! I’m pretty smart😁

Joke aside, thank you for confirming my thoughts. I was also tempted to point the polyquaternium 7, based on past experiences with polyquats. I didn’t, because I feel almost like a fraud for not being a chemist/pharmacist/etc, and being less able to express my thoughts in chemical/professional terms.

But I’m working to get there😃

Thank you, again.

[Aniela]

Hopefully after a walk (fresh air) your nose will “perform” better🙂

It’s always good to learn new things, so is it too much if I ask you to share the “culprit” after you finish your experiments?

Thank you.

• This reply was modified 4 weeks ago by  Aniela.

[Aniela]

Sorry, a bit confused: by “allergen analysis” you mean the calculation based on the COA provided by your supplier, or proper Lab testing to check if the said COA is accurate?

[Aniela]

The thing is that MOST of the functional ingredients (actives, preservatives, sunscreens, etc) we are using today (and most of the essential oils for that matter) have been deemed safe AFTER were tested in labs (on mice, rats, rabbits…)=> they’re NOT “cruelty-free”.

As for the natural things, let’s take for example Amazonian/African butters/oils: are you 100% sure that none of the fauna or flora members were affected by the harvesting process (nuts or fruits or whatever)? As in they could find the same amount of food and shelter as before the “natural” trend/madness started?

My point is “cruelty-free” is a lie in most circumstances, whereas “product not tested on animals” is more accurate, if indeed only clinical trials on humans were performed.