[amorical]

Are formaldehyde donors VOCs? I’m just doubting everything now.

[amorical]

Could you explain why there is so much contradictory information on whether phenoxyethanol is volatile or not? All the little mentions I find about it say differing things? Not doubting you, just trying to understand.

[amorical]

Phenoxyethanol isn’t a voc??? I definitely thought it was and definitely read somewhere that it was! I can’t find where I read that though… Unfortunately I don’t know enough chemistry to know if something is a VOC or not other than by google research.    
That’s totally a game changer! 
So I could just use phenoxyethanol and caprylyl glycol or ethylhexylglycerin? What pairing would you recommend?
This is so exciting!! I crossed it off my list eons ago! Thank you so much. 

Good to know about the 1,2- hexanediol! I will look into that more too. Maybe it will have less stickiness factor? Talking to people who actually know what they’re talking about is equal to hours of research to me.

[amorical]

When I have tried to increase glycerin it results in a slimy stickiness that is not super great. I can try again though. I like what I’m reading about 1,2-hexanediol, except that it is volatile.

Thank you to everyone for your thoughts and help. I am not attached to the BIT or SPT, just trying to problem solve and feeling like I’m running out of options. 

I am thinking of hiring a formulator to help figure it out, unless anyone has any fabulous solutions. What works at 9.8 ph, that doesn’t hurt peoples skin, and doesn’t contain vocs? Anything? 

[amorical]

Okay, so I tested ph again and came out with what I suspected, around 9.8.

I tried a blend of 2% BIT and 8% sodium pyrithione at 1% of the formula. I put a dab of the result on my face and it stung after a while. Not that this is face paint but I don’t want it to sting if it happens. 

Hmmm… if you wanted to maintain hydration, you could switch glycerol for 1,2-hexanediol alongside some less traditional preservative.

I’m confused. How would this help me? Is something wrong with using the glycerol? I would be okay lowering water activity, but I’m not totally sure how…

I have not been able to get samples of the pentylene glycol, propanediol, caprylyl glycol, ethylhexylglycerin and chlorophenesin blend because of covid, but I’m still curious as to your thoughts on it. Would it work or is it just a blend of boosters?

[amorical]

Okay, good to know. I will test again. 

My water percentage changes with the pigment being used, but in the base it is 20.9%. At the highest with pigment it is 35.8%. Glycerin is right now 2.2%. Recipe is still in the works though (obviously). 

[amorical]

Thank you both. 

I am actually not totally sure if it is 9 or 10 as I’m having trouble getting a solid reading. The first time I tried I did it with the pigment in it (bad idea), not to mention the emulsion broke when I diluted it so the wax was floating on the top. I will try again with just the base. But I am pretty sure it is 9 or 10 because of the liquid soap. I could probably adjust to either without messing up the emulsion (I think). 

What options would open up to me at 9? I feel like most things I see, if they are to be used at a ph above 6 or 7 they often are very broad, like up to 11, so it didn’t seemed like it mattered. 

[amorical]

Thank you for your continued help, Perry and Pharma. I appreciate it and your patience.

But looking into it parabens don’t even work well in formulations with a ph of 8 or higher (mine is 9-10). 
Also- I did list my ingredients above, Perry.

The list you provided of:
SymOcide C

Lincocide™ C

Sharon™ Biomix Free 

Plantservative

None of these make any sense for my product. The first isn’t soluble in water, the second doesn’t work in a high ph range, and the last two don’t seem like they’d work in general.

I’m not a chemist but I’m not a fool either, and I’m genuinely trying to make the right decision. I get that you don’t like when people are needlessly (and maybe stupidly) biased against things, and I hear your point loud and clear, but I don’t want or need suggestions for things that aren’t applicable to my formulation.

[amorical]

Okay. You have me swayed. I will continue to do my research and be stunned by the fact that there is nothing proven to be wrong with methylparaben. 

In the meantime, can you tell me your opinion of a system with pentylene glycol, 1,3- propanediol, caprylyl glycol, ethylhexylglycerin, and chlorophenesin?

[amorical]

And even if I was to use one of those- which would use suggest for an alkaline formula that will break with an acid, that contains pigments? I was thinking BIT + NaPT (Proxel LS), but even on here people who seem to know what they’re talking about shoot down isothiazolinones. 

Consumer safety is my priority. The my whole premise of my product is “no worries”. So if I use a product that freaks people out, do I just not disclose it? I would rather be able to be transparent with my customers.

[amorical]

I hear what you are saying, and it makes sense. 
And I also wonder- can you have both? Avoid the things that people are afraid of and still use a researched and reliable product? 
If you could find the best of both worlds, why not try?

[amorical]

These are excellent points, thanks for your thoughts. 

I don’t have a scale, rather I am just working off the premise that I want my customers to not have worry about what is in the product. So I was trying to avoid the big “scary” things that get a bad rap. Many architectural paint brands that advertise as “non-toxic” or “eco” also advertise as not containing formaldehyde donors, parabens, etc, and I think there is a corner of the market that with a big focus on the “non-toxic” trend of “natural”, “eco-friendly”, “green” etc etc etc. 
Re: “as long as it is as least-toxic as it can be while still be an effective preservative”
I guess I mean, maybe I do need to use the things I’d rather not to have an effective preservative system, but I would rather try to avoid it. But most important is that it’s not actually going to irritate/sensitize/harm the consumer.

Sorry for not having a more concrete answer. Still trying to figure it out. 

[amorical]

As I say in my first post, what “toxic” has come to mean in this product is in relation to the eyes of the market, with the exception of widely outrageous quacks making ridiculous claims. So the things I’ve listed in my first post (vocs, formaldehyde releasers, isothiazolines, parabens) which are seen by the general public as harmful (even if they aren’t in the tiny qualities they’re generally used in) I have been trying to avoid.
If you think that I can claim to be “non-toxic” while ignoring the concerns many people have about those ingredients I would really love to hear your reasoning. 

[amorical]

What about Lincoserve WpH-LO or Lincoserve WpH-LO Plus

Pentylene glycol, propanediol, caprylyl glycol, ethylhexylglycerin

And “Plus” contains all that chlorophenesin 

Any experience or thoughts about them? 

Side note:
Linatural Ultra-3 contains 5-15% phenethyl alchohol, so if you added it at 1.3%, at most you have .195% VOC content in your paint, which can still count for claims of “zero-voc” paints (you can have up to 5g per liter). Feels like lying to me though…

[amorical]

I thought about it being self preserving with a high ph, but I wasn’t sure if having the ph that high itself would be irritating on the skin. I just don’t know enough about that to feel comfortable relying on it. I could be convinced otherwise though, if someone has experience with it… 

Rats about the phenethyl alcohol, I was feeling like I could go with Linatural Ultra-3. It’s weird, I can’t find anything about it being a VOC anywhere. In terms of spoon-wise, isn’t it commonly used as a food flavoring? 
I was trying to avoid propylene glycol as it is derived from petroleum (another thing I’m trying to not have)

I honestly don’t care about it being “natural” or “green” (the linatural was just coincidence, hehe), as long as it is as least-toxic as it can be while still be an effective preservative (and not derived from petroleum!). Is phenylpropanol also a voc? 

Re: Phytate. Yes, I know, I was including it not to say that I had my preservative figured out, but that I was adding a chelator (just haven’t gotten around to working it in yet) 

Thanks so much for your help. 

[amorical]

Thanks for your thoughts, Pharma. 

Yes, I just started looking at Lincoln Products, specifically Linatural Ultra-3 , Linatural MBS-8 , and Lincoserve PA-2. Does anyone have any experience with these products? In Phenethyl Alchohol (which is in all of them) a voc?

Ingredients in my formula so far: Water, Liquid Soap Base (Water, Olive Oil, Glycerin, Potassium Hydroxide), Beeswax, Pigment, Glycerin, Gum Arabic

I’m working on adding in Sodium Phytate.

And I’m definitely not suggesting that they eat it! Just that if a little gets in their mouth/lips they don’t have to call poison control or anything.