[Agate]

I’ve read that heating the containers makes a massive difference as the dip happens due to the temperature difference between the container and the poured balm. Not sure how practical it is to heat up cardboard, but it’s something you may want to experiment with.

[Agate]

I’m very pleased with my Bamix with its emulsifying attachment. It has a 12’000 RPM and 17’000 RPM setting and can be run for up to 5 minutes at a time. All parts from the motor to the blades are solid metal and known to last for decades (unlike my previous blender which had a plastic connection, which caused it to fail irrepairably). Not the easiest to clean as it can only be hand-washed. Works for batches of 50ml minimum, 100ml would be better. I’m not sure what the upper limit is but I don’t see it doing 350oz. They do have a larger version called the Gastro 350W - Pro-3 if that is important to you.

I have my eye on an IKA overhead stirrer as my next upgrade so I can experiment with different stirring attachments, but even used they are quite pricey for my home lab.

[Agate]

@Doreen Well said, thank you.

[Agate]

Thanks for sharing! I plan on using Leucidal for one of my products, I see that I’ll need to stock up on some more dip slides…

Generally speaking, how do you introduce bacteria into your products before swiping? So far I’ve just been using non-sterile tools for swiping, but I don’t feel like that’s reliable enough to make a prediction for a PET.

[Agate]

I haven’t tried it myself but know of several DIYers who do use them. I would make sure that you get one where you can slow it down to an RPM of 100 or lower so you don’t make a mess when adding things to your batch.

For the sort of money that a new, cheap drill press would cost, I would personally rather buy a good used overhead stirrer. 

[Agate]

I’m surprised that lactic acid smells bad, I never noticed the smell of mine, but then I never used it at 10% either. Smelling straight from the bottle it has a faint but pleasant scent, I might even call it fragrant. I bought it from aroma-zone.com, the site is in French but they ship world-wide for reasonable rates. I don’t know if they’d supply larger volumes though, should you need them.

[Agate]

Search for “drill press”

[Agate]

Thank you for bringing this topic to my attention, I’m currently writing SOPs but didn’t think of that.
I looked into it and found this: http://www.bioline.org.br/pdf?dv09005 It’s not an SOP but an elaboration on EU guidelines, but it might still give you a starting point.
On a side note, I believe that “adverse drug experience” isn’t quite the right term in this context as it refers to drugs, which I imagine you aren’t selling. “Adverse reaction to cosmetics” or “adverse event” might bring you more targeted results when searching and also be more suitable in the title of an SOP.

[Agate]

I’m not an expert but the guar gum also stood out to me as a possible cause for your consistency issues. No idea what could be causing the fishy odor.

[Agate]

Without wanting to read through the entire thread, which mixers exactly are you considering?

From my research, a used IKA overhead stirrer is a pretty safe bet for most small batch formulators, especially if you don’t need high shear, which it doesn’t seem you do.

I just looked into the push drill as a substitute but I wouldn’t buy it. 540RPM is still pretty high and I wouldn’t want stuff splashing all over the place when adding more ingredients to a batch.

[Agate]

This doesn’t fully match my perception, I’m even avoiding a few surfactants which are called “Sodium Lauryl ***” because I’ve been told by someone from my target group (in the “natural” market) that they were worried it might be veiling Sodium Lauryl Sulphate.

To me it feels like it’s become less of a topic because most brands in that niche are now sulphate-free anyways. What sorts of markets are you working with?

[Agate]

Thanks guys!

@Belassi I didn’t know glucosides were “draggy”, but in my trials I have had issues spreading it around my hair easily, causing me to use more product to cover it all. Is that the effect you’re referring to?

A year into developing one shampoo (with heavy self-imposed marketing constraints) I’m definitely realizing just how difficult it is, but I like a challenge. Chemistscorner has been tremendously helpful.

[Agate]

After spending well over $500 on the quest to formulate my own shampoo, I think 9 euros is cheap for a shampoo that one likes I wouldn’t recommend going down the same rabbit hole if it is to save money.

[Agate]

Hi ozgirl, thank you for your response as well. It does seem pH is the issue, I’ll start with water next time. I was trying to replace that with hydrosol/aloe vera gel for a nice looking label, but if it doesn’t work so be it.

[Agate]

Thanks for the response! The lavender hydrosol is coming close to its expiry date (04/2020) but shows no signs of spoilage, all other ingredients are well in date so it’s probably something else.

Is it true that the honey, aloe vera gel and lavender hydrosol are all acidic - so maybe that is causing the issues. So I’ll try diluting first next time, and will also see if I get a similar reaction with other acidic solutions mixed with CG, just to prove the hypothesis.

Didn’t realize Coco glucoside needed an emulsifier in these combinations, thanks for the heads up.

[Agate]

I don’t see why you’d need a preservative if it’s an oil-based product?

[Agate]

Moringa oil is very much on trend and has outstanding oxidative stability.

[Agate]

None of those rang a bell for me as being photosensitizing/phototoxic, but I searched each of them in combination with the keyword photo* and came up with nothing. Obviously this is ultimately up to your safety assessor to decide.

Since you’re saying natural sunscreen, I’m assuming you are probably looking to use zinc oxide, so I would highly recommend reading this if you haven’t already: https://realizebeauty.wordpress.com/2012/12/30/the-trouble-with-making-your-own-sunscreen/ Essentially, it’s very difficult to formulate a reliable sunscreen with zinc oxide. It’s not impossible obviously, but it’s not as simple as just mixing some zinc oxide into any base.

[Agate]

Very interesting, thank you! I’ll have to see if I can work with gummy. At least I don’t seem to be pointlessly trying to break a chemical rule (thinking of the obvious impossibility of acidic shampoos containing soap for example).

I did a small test with some Coco Glucoside in a fan oven for 3 hours at 50°C, which reduced it to 70% of the original amount. My starting batch had 55% Coco Glucoside, so assuming mostly water evaporated, I should be left with just about an 80/20 ratio. At 50°C it’s less viscous than the original product at room temperature, but I’ll wait to see what happens when it cools down and will try to work with it tomorrow.

Edit: I just tested a bit of the very gummy scrapings from the sides of the container (near 100% CG?) and some of the presumed 80/20 mix, just washing my hands with them. The lather seems hard to work up and very fine/creamy.

[Agate]

This isn’t what one would normally call “Thyme” in English. Thyme is most commonly Thymus vulgaris, but they list the botanical name as Herpestis monniera, which I believe is more commonly known as Bacopa monnieri, which is Brahmi. I’ve never personally used it, but I know that it is one of the most popular traditional ayurvedic herbs for supporting hair health. I did a quick search on Google Scholar and found no research to support or refute any of the claims.

And yes, it might work via placebo effect. There is a lot of suggestion online that Brahmi can work all sorts of miracles for hair - and a strong placebo effect is worth something!

[Agate]

Thanks Bill, that is valuable information. I’ve seen both done and been confused about which is correct.

In theory I don’t think it should be too difficult though to calculate how much of what is produced in a chemical reaction, especially when it is as simple as saponification. But I imagine the actual values aren’t quite the same in practice as they should theoretically be.

[Agate]

Yes I figured that. It seems quite unfair to those who do follow the rules to just conveniently leave out ingredients that don’t sound “natural”.

On a different note, wouldn’t it be the right thing by most countries’ regulations to list Potassium cocoate and Glycerin as the product of the chemical reaction rather than Potassium hydroxide and Coconut oil as the ingredients used initially?

[Agate]

Yes exactly, it’s by Calia, which is a very popular “natural” shampoo brand.

Good to hear that you also agree that it’s incorrect. I was doubting myself and wondering if it was maybe appropriate to write Cocos nucifera (coconut) oil, when one is actually using Potassium cocoate. I’ve seen it done on so many “natural” products, and that’s just one example. How come so many companies get away with shoddy labelling? Is there just no one there to enforce it?

That’s just a crazy profit margin. They’re doing something right then.