[africanbug]

ngarayeva001 said:

Have a look what Trulux have. It’s Australian supplier. They have very advanced ingredients but prices are a bit outrageous. I know for sure they have polyglyceryl-2 DPHS

yes I found the polyglyceryl-2 DPHS there. the prices are rather outrageous but they carry some harder to find ingredients. I buy from them products that I can’t find elsewhere

[africanbug]

@Pharma @ngarayeva001

yes just saw it but unfortunately they don’t ship to Singapore.. at least not currently

has anyone tried using Polyglyceryl-2 Dipolyhydroxystearate with Polyglyceryl-3 Diisostearate? 

[africanbug]

ngarayeva001 said:

You can try a combo of polyglyceryl-2 DPHS and isolan GPS and squalane plus coco caprylate as your oils. 

@ngarayeva001
I have checked most of the usual suppliers like FSS, MakingCosmetics etc but can’t find anyone that carries Isolan GPS, is it only available B2B suppliers?

[africanbug]

Pharma said:

@africanbug I completely forgot about the Abbott book. Started reading it few months ago but ‘lost’ it. Thanks for the reminder. That book is pure gold!

@Pharma
it is very informative but so much to wade through!

[africanbug]

Graillotion said:

@Graillotion

the Bamix pro comes with this head as well. it can handle up to 4 minutes of continuous use then it gets hot..

[africanbug]

@ngarayeva001
I shun chemistry and don’t have the brain for it, you might find these 2 articles interesting though..

https://knowledge.ulprospector.com/3414/pcc-understanding-polarity-2/?fbclid=IwAR0XK3Ons4FE2tPGhhmETEXYyFHTJO0VUhKwx0KXgXPqAz4r5nqiJMUx2dw

https://www.stevenabbott.co.uk/practical-surfactants/the-book.php?fbclid=IwAR05FV-RHMJYXQxad-JwniTsyxOCbx60uoTkyx9It9Uq4dPZTy8oFm18J0M

[africanbug]

ngarayeva001 said:

@africanbug, I don’t know what limitations you have when it comes to materials but it’s relatively easy to find decent w/o emulsifiers that can be classified as natural. Can you change emulsifier or you must use olivem? You can try a combo of polyglyceryl-2 DPHS and isolan GPS and squalane plus coco caprylate as your oils. Need to check my formulas but I remember this combination works pretty well. It can even be processed cold with zinc stearate as a stabiliser.

I can change emulsifiers as long as it is natural. it is just that I have olivem900 on hand and with the current covid lockdown, it is not as easy to buy and ship materials! I looked at my stocks and I have about 20ml of squalane left, not enough to attempt an emulsion. Having had 20 failed formulations with Olivem900, I am pretty tired of all the washing lol so I will take your recommendations and try to find the ingredients you mentioned above. I will post an update here when I make the emulsions. Thank you so very much @ngarayeva001 ❤️

[africanbug]

letsalcido said:

If you don’t want to look at molecules all day and try to decipher if it’s polar or not, simply look up if the compound is soluble (or miscible) in water and to what extend. The more you can mix with water, the more polar it is.

that I can do thank you

[africanbug]

@Graillotion I tried 50g but it was too small to homogenise properly, at 100g it works well

[africanbug]

If you are also looking for plant oils and essential oils, look up these 2 distributors Ziani Organic Oils (Germany) and Scattersoils (South Africa). They are willing to sell to small businesses in smaller units like 1kg.

[africanbug]

@Graillotion I have a Bamix pro (14,000 - 18,000) 2 speed as you said so I presume the lower speed runs at 14,000rpm. Would you like a close up shot of the blade and various heads?

[africanbug]

@ngarayeva001 thank you for replying again

yes from what I gathered from the olivem brief, the larger part of oil phase consists of squalane. seems like sorbitan olivate tolerates rather little polar oils unfortunately and keeping it “natural” really takes out most of the options..nonetheless, I’ll keep trying. I hate being stumped lol

[africanbug]

Hallo,

I’m Mary from Singapore. i realised I had jumped straight into posting my questions and had not seen this introductory page, so sorry!

I’m a trained pastry chef though not a practicing one. I‘m a certified aromatherapist, now taking a series of courses on natural skincare formulation. I love learning new things. 

I appreciate greatly this forum, a very pleasant environment with many kind and supportive people. Thank you ❤️

[africanbug]

@ngarayeva001, thank you so much for your very kind advice ❤️. I made a few experiments today implementing your comments, I’ve got 2 emulsions that look promising. Fingers crossed.

I am in a natural skincare formulation course and therefore, ingredients have got to be natural..I have read that synthetic emulsifiers are less of a pain than natural but well..

Thank you everyone for your kind comments  

[africanbug]

ngarayeva001 said:

I thought it’s high internal phase W/O as there is salt as a stabiliser there. W/Os are extremely challenging and process sensitive. I haven’t worked with Olivem 900 but in any case you need at least two emulsifiers. You need stabilisers for both oil and waterphase. You are already using salt for the waterphase, now you need to add magnesium stearate or zinc stearate or hydrogenated castor oil or anything that works as oil gellant. You need an overhead stirrer that you would set up at low shear and water is to be added with a pipette by drops. You need to wait for the temperature to drop to <50C and only then apply high shear which will increase viscosity. And don’t do it for too long. Also, as it was mentioned above, your emulsifier might not be designed for making high internal phase w/o emulsions. You have to reconsider your emulsification system.

thank you ngarayeva001! unfortunately my latest experiment is starting to look unstable. I can’t find any information on adding stabilisers for the oil phase, at what percentage should I add it please? will beeswax be able to act as a stabiliser? 

[africanbug]

Thank you all for your very helpful contributions. Following Perry’s advise, I revised the oil phase to  

10% Cocoa Butter
50% Sunflower Oil
(Total HLB 6.83)

5% Olivem 900
1.3% Cetyl Alcohol
(Total HLB 6.9)

and it is the best result I have seen so far. The emulsion looks to be stable and is thickening slowly. I can’t wait to see it tomorrow and fingers crossed. Not sure if I have gotten this right so if anyone sees a folly in my formula, please do correct me. Thank you!

ps: Thank you very much Perry!

Pharma said:

I like Olionatura.de: Assuming you’re not German speaking, here a short translation of what she says about Olivem 900:

Olivem 900 is a w/o emulsifier supposedly good for oil phases above 50% and requires at least 75°C. Given your description of a liquid product implies a o/w emulsion which won’t be stable. The required HLB values posted by @Perry are only valid for o/w emulsions, not w/o (they tend to be lower there) . For o/w emulsions you might have to add more Olivem and more cetyl alcohol, not less.

Try using more than 50% oil phase, 7-8% Olivem, cetyl alcohol is optional but might boost stability and creaminess.

As @EVchem said, add the water phase very slowly and make sure everything is homogeneous before you add more. Keep on mixing until cold and don’t cool too fast. BTW Bamix are kitchen stick blenders with an astonishing RPM for such tools (depends on the model, somewhere between 12’000 and 17’000 RPM).

I am actually trying to achieve a w/o emulsion.. yes, the Bamix is quite a solid homogeniser, mine is between 14,000 - 18,000rpm) 

[africanbug]

Hi Perry,

Thank you for taking the time to read through my post. I don’t know much about HLB system but from what I just read and your reply, please tell me if I have understood and made the HLB calculation rightly:

Oil Phase is 60% of formulation
10% Cocoa Butter, 16.7% of Oil Phase HLB 6 = 0.167×6 = 1.002
50% Coconut Oil, 83.3% of Oil Phase HLB 8 = 0.833×8 = 6.664
Total = 7.66

So, to emulsify this mixture of oils, I will need

Emulsifier is 7% of formulation
4% Olivem, 57.14% of Emulsifier HLB 4.7 = 0.571×4.7 = 2.69
3% Sucrose Stearate, 42.9% of Emulsifier HLB 11 = 0.428×11 = 4.719
Total = 7.409

Is that correct? Also, could you please tell me generally, does “oil phase” include emulsifiers or it is solely the oils?

Many thanks again.

Mary

[africanbug]

Pharma said:

It is a stable molecule, short term heating won’t degrade it.

It’s melting point is at about 50°C and therefore, there is no need to heat it above that temp.

Could you help me further on this pls.. if I were to incorporate it into a hot process emulsion, does it make sense if I take these steps:
1. Emulsify oil and water phase at 70 degrees celcius.
2. Melt the coenzyme in a small qty of oil ( small percentage from the oil phase) to 50 degrees celcius, then mix it into the emulsion and mix to homogénéisé?

Or is there a better way to do this?

Thank you again!

[africanbug]

Thank you very much for your information it is very much appreciated!