abierose
Forum Replies Created
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ngarayeva001 said:@abierose, I don’t think they are right re dimethicone 500. It’s not too sensitive.I wouldn’t be surprised if they are not right about that…I’ve came across a few weird/incorrect pieces of information on their site in the past ???? And when I do, I come here and ask the experts! ????
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Abdullah said:jemolian said:If it doesn’t contain a volatile component, normally i add it into the heated oil phase if applicable. Sometimes they would have recommendations on processing guidelines on the tech sheet if any.
Thanks
I currently use dimethicone 5 cst at cool down phase and it work well. As adding it to oil phase would be easier i wanted to make sure that nonvolatile silicones are not heat sensitive.I add mine at cool down as well (dimethicone 350) but I know I could add it to oil phase, however even the non-volatile silicones often have a max heat restriction. For example, according to Making Cosmetics, dimethicine 500 should not be heated past 125°F so I would need it in the cool down phase due to the heat requirements of most of my emulsifiers and waxes.
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Wow, what great feedback! I have been very blessed with my mother’s and grandmother’s soft skin, however, I do apply lotion every time from head to toe when I get out of the shower. My hands, however, can suffer from too much handwashing and dish detergent so I find myself applying lotion and hand cream throughout the day as well. I think that I prefer a hand cream that really lasts as long as possible, even through a bit of hand washing as @RedCoast mentioned. That being said, there are times I just need a little moisturization and want something to soak in immediately and yet still feel like it’s doing a good job of keeping my hands soft….so, maybe you could make 2 separate hand creams…one for intense moisturizing needs (option A) and one a little lighter that soaks in immediately (option B…)? I guess I’m having a difficult time giving a definitive answer because honestly, some days my hands need more moisturization than other days and some days the work and activities I am doing wouldn’t work well to have a hand cream that stuck around for too long but other times I love to feel my hands physically still moisturized and soft hours later…it all just depends ???? I don’t know if that was any help at all but hopefully!!
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@jemolian Thanks! What a great book…I have already spent a few hours reading through it…tons of great information!
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MarkBroussard said:@Bobzchemist … always valued his posts … anyone know of his whereabouts lately?
You missed a shout out to @chemicalmatt whose vast knowledge of the field is truly amazing.
Oh I didn’t forget @chemicalmatt ???? he’s up there in my initial post at the top…he is definitely one of the great minds on this forum!
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@Abdullah you really do ask the best questions! I have wondered this very same thing for quite some time.
I found a lot of interesting articles and publications on TEWL but nothing that specifically answers your question. However I did find a publication about Stratum Corneum Hydration as it relates to TEWL…below is a link to that as well as a screenshot of some of the article…I don’t know if any of this will be helpful but I am hoping someone can answer your question because I am interested in knowing this as well.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/srt.12711
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@DrJekyll thanks ???? it’s just so nice to have a place that I can go to and ask questions and research topics and know that there is always knowledgeable, highly intelligent people that are so willing to take time out of their busy schedule to help me…like @Graillotion said, there is so much misinformation online so having this forum is truly invaluable to me!
@Pharma your knowledge and experience I get to appreciate two-fold! Through your direct help and also through the knowledge you’ve bestowed on your “Mac nut” supplier/pupil! I honestly would have gotten discouraged long ago in my venture into this industry had it not been for all the help @Graillotion has given me, as well as this forum. ????
“Knowledge is the only water that makes one thirsty when it is drunk”
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Mel55 said:Thanks everyone for your comments.
@abierose I will try a batch with reduced avocado oil and allantoin as you suggest. I will also remove the panthenol, hydrolised wheat protein and chamomile. I assume that your comments about these ingredients would extend to other products (for example leave-in hair conditioner)? Having read through this forum I stopped using them in rinse off products. I am really keen on minimal ingredient use. I have never used a chelator (other than citric acid to adjust pH), but I only make small batches and have not had a problem. I don’t have a chemistry background so am probably a little naïve in this respect.
@jemolian you made me realise how similar this is to my conditioner formula! I use BTMS because I find the other emulsifying wax I have access to results in a greasy product. As I only make things for my own use, I am thinking I can now reduce my product list to a hair/face/body wash and a moisturiser/conditioner/leave-in!
Thanks again,
Mel.
If you’re only making small batches for yourself, I honestly wouldn’t worry about using a chelator but that is just my opinion. If you’re making small batches to sell to the public, a chelator is appropriate. Also, the ingredients that are useless or unnecessary in your rinse-off formulas could actually be useful in a leave-on product ????
As far as emulsifiers, there are SO MANY available, all with their own characteristics and feel…I was so happy when I ventured away from BTMS and experimented with different options ???? -
Graillotion said:Your open mind has been appreciated. Sometime the newbies that float in…have been so indoctrinated from the mommy blogger sites….there is no helping them.
Thank you, that means a lot ???? I can’t tell you how much I’ve appreciated your willingness to always help me and to do so with such kindness. You’re awesome! ☺
As for the mommy blogger sites, here’s a quote that might be relevant ????:
“A loud voice of ignorance to thousands, is an incredible waste of opportunity to promote intelligence”
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seaberry said:I want to hop on and say thanks to everyone as well! From those who are like living textbook with endless knowledge to share, to those who give blunt—and rock-solid—advice from their years of experience, to the intermediates with interesting questions that spark incredible discussions, the expertise and fellowship in this forum is so useful and so appreciated!
Well said!!
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Speaking of @Pharma, what are your thoughts on this topic?
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Graillotion said:abierose said:@Abdullah if it isn’t compatible, why are there so many formulations using these ingredients together? Here’s a few I found via a Google search:https://goop.com/ursa-major-let-s-go-shower-kit/p/
If they are incompatible, would using them together create any negative and perceivable issues? Or would using them together make the sodium phytate not work as a chelator? I have tried to find definitive information on whether or not they are incompatible ????♀️
You are assuming these brands know what they are doing.
And maybe they do know what they are doing, but are playing coy…. They know some astute shoppers will want to see a chelator on the label….so they add one at .00001% to satisfy that group. Or….and more probable….clueless. One cannot assume these companies all have access to the likes of pharma in their formulating room.
Per an earlier thread of mine….some of the great minds on the site suggested that GLDA be used (best choice of the bad choices) with cationics. Even it has some conflict, so it was recommend at a much lower rate. I use it at half the typical rate in my latest cream.
Oh…and it was suggested that sodium phytate was about the worst choice in a cationic situation.
Assuming what you suggested is true, and brands like Goop are clueless, I would think that it would eventually come down to a functionality and stability of the product and if the chelator they chose is incompatible and therefore ineffective, it would at some point come up. Personally I am NOT a fan of Goop or their products. At all. ????
This is just one of those topics that peak my interest because of the differing opinions of multiple very smart people on this forum. That, and the fact I like to know, for sure, what is and what isn’t really true, so that not only do I know for my own formulating agenda, but also so I don’t spread any misinformation….you know how I am @Graillotion…I need definitive answers to be satisfied! ????
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@Abdullah if it isn’t compatible, why are there so many formulations using these ingredients together? Here’s a few I found via a Google search:
https://goop.com/ursa-major-let-s-go-shower-kit/p/If they are incompatible, would using them together create any negative and perceivable issues? Or would using them together make the sodium phytate not work as a chelator? I have tried to find definitive information on whether or not they are incompatible ????♀️
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jemolian said:@abierose it will depend on the charge, so the anionic chelating agents won’t do. I’m not sure what charge sodium phytate is, but if it’s anionic but used in a small percentage, perhaps it would still be fine.
Ah, I see. That makes sense. Thank you for taking the time to explain that to me! ????
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helenhelen said:abierose said:helenhelen said:@Graillotion Something I have noticed recently about behenyl alcohol is that despite its cushion, it can feel quite “empty” on the skin compared to cetearyl alcohol… it misses a deeper adhesiveness which I think comes from the stearyl alcohol in cetearyl alcohol.
Have you noticed this “empty” feeling with Cetyl Alcohol as well? Lately I have experienced that same “empty” feeling with a few of my latest formulations and I have been using cetyl instead of cetearyl in these formulations…could this be all or part of the reason I am also getting that “empty” “meh” kind of feeling from them now…?
Yes I can’t use cetyl alcohol (instead of cetearyl alcohol) for that reason.. it just isn’t protective enough on my (dry) skin… it’s quite “airy” compared to cetearyl alcohol which has a more substantive waxy feel. Cetearyl alcohol feels more emollient and occlusive on my skin as well, and helps hold the moisture in.
Cetearyl alcohol also gives a glossier, more opaque look to my creams. Sometimes I find cetyl alcohol gives a chalky look in the pot, but with translucency on pickup… a less professional/premium experience.
Maybe try switching back to cetearyl alcohol to see if it helps with the “meh” feeling.
I’ve got some stearyl alcohol coming tomorrow as I’m interested to see what it feels like on its own, without cetyl alcohol.
Oh my goodness, thank you for that feedback! I have been seriously wondering why I wasn’t getting the same moisturizing effect anymore! I will definitely be swapping back out cetyl for cetearyl! I have also been meaning to get some behenyl alcohol as well as stearyl alcohol to experiment with too. Thanks again for your insight!
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helenhelen said:@Graillotion Something I have noticed recently about behenyl alcohol is that despite its cushion, it can feel quite “empty” on the skin compared to cetearyl alcohol… it misses a deeper adhesiveness which I think comes from the stearyl alcohol in cetearyl alcohol.
Have you noticed this “empty” feeling with Cetyl Alcohol as well? Lately I have experienced that same “empty” feeling with a few of my latest formulations and I have been using cetyl instead of cetearyl in these formulations…could this be all or part of the reason I am also getting that “empty” “meh” kind of feeling from them now…?
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MarkBroussard said:I thought the 5% rule was where you add every ingredient at 5% each to keep the math simple?
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I could be mistaken but it is my understanding that naming a product “Eczema Cream”, even if you are not making any other reference to a claim, it is still leading the consumer to believe that the product will cure or help Eczema. I believe you can still be sued and/or held accountable for not adhering to the FDA labeling laws regarding active and claim statements. @Perry is MUCH better at explaining this than me ????
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@jemolian what about the BTMS would make a chelator not suitable for this formulation? I have seen many formulas using both BTMS and a chelator such as sodium phytate…
@Abdullah yes, that is true. I’ve read it also becomes more soluble with heat, however I have also read a lot of conflicting information about this, even from reseller websites. I choose to heat mine with my aqueous phase until 176°F and then emulsify with my oil phase. A lot of websites suggest adding it with the cool down ingredients but I’ve since learned, and choose to believe, to not go this route. ????
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I would think this would very much depend on the ingredient you’re using…each and every ingredient has its own suggested and maximum usage rates…and I agree with @Graillotion…there are a lot of ingredients that can cause serious injury and/or damage if used at 5%…some even at .5% or less! At the very least, most ingredients would not give any more perceivable benefit when used at more than 1-2%. But again, each ingredient is different.
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Hello!
Here’s a few things I’ve learned from researching, experimenting, and from my time on this forum:1) Allantoin is soluble up to .5% of your water phase. So, if your water phase is 66%, the amount of Allantoin you should use would be up to .33% not .5% .. @Graillotion gave me the rundown on the basics of Allantoin solubility (and is a wealth of information as well ????)
2) Avocado Oil at 15% seems pretty high but perhaps that is just a matter of preference
3) Most of the chemists on this forum would probably say that the Panthenol isn’t doing anything in your formula….and may say the same thing about the Chamomile Extract…and the hydrolyzed wheat protein as well…????♀️
4) You should really use a chelator….
Other than that I think your formula looks fine…have you tried using it as a conditioner…? It looks like it could also be used as one. Hope any of this helps!
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In my experience, cetyl alcohol tends to decrease the viscosity slightly when compared to cetearyl alcohol.
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@Abdullah that’s what I thought but I wanted to clarify. Then after seeing Henry’s comment…I didn’t know if your comment to me was sarcastic or sincere ????♀️ Either way, no worries. If you were being sincere, my background is graphic/web design and marketing. However as I learn more and more about how much deception goes into cosmetic marketing, I’ve become a bit disenchanted with all of it. Most every cosmetic ingredient that we as consumers have been led to believe works is actually just “clever marketing” and so a lot of my comments are just a way to make light of it all. Anyway, whatever. ????
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@Abdullah “…importance of marking..”…? Sorry, I don’t understand…can you explain this to me?
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@Dtdang thank you for the links ???? I’m still in the process of organizing all of my inventory but I think if I have a humidor or something similar, along with a locking storage cabinet, and a mini fridge that will be a good start for organization and storage.
Thanks again for the info!!