[Abdullah]

@ngarayeva001 would it increase the viscosity or decrease it? 

I want to use it for it’s conditioning effect. 

[Abdullah]

Don’t use them and see what happens

[Abdullah]

What is the shampoo formula?

[Abdullah]

@RedCoast was it %2 glycerin in cleaning product or in the Product that is used after cleaning? Like lotion or cream

[Abdullah]

@chemicalmatt @singhc10 yes (b) has more active but it is a bit more expensive too. So If used for the same active level the price would be almost the same. 
Final pH would be adjusted to 5.

The ingredients in (a) are 
Amodimethicone   %28-36
Trideceth-12   %1-3
Cetrimonium Chloride   %1-3
Water   %50-65

I have seen the same product in Phique Shampoo Shampoo that i think is from @Perry.
Water, Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate, Sodium Lauryl Sulfate, Sodium Laureth Sulfate, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Sodium Chloride, Lauryl Glucoside, Stearyl Citrate, Disodium Laureth Sulfosuccinate, Polyquaternium-10, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride, Amodimethicone, Cetrimonium Chloride, Fragrance, Trideceth-12, Tetrasodium EDTA, Phenoxyethanol, Caprylyl Glycol, Ethylhexylglycerin, Hexylene Glycol, Sodium Hydroxide.

My main main question is about the viscosity of Amodimethicone itself. One is 30000 and other is 100000 cps.
Wich viscosity would be better for conditioning or there is no difference in performance? 

[Abdullah]

@chemicalmatt thanks 
I thought amphoterics will reduce the Zein value more than APG.

[Abdullah]

@chemicalmatt do EGMS and EGGS also need suspending agent? 

Do HPMC and cationic guar also work as suspending agent? 

[Abdullah]

@ngarayeva001 it is PQ10 jr400. It impacts viscosity very less

[Abdullah]

@em88 i want to make very good shampoo if not the best one. I have tried many surfactants. The best was ISELUX which was %10-20 better than SLES but 10 times more expensive than SLES. That much quality is not worth that much price.

What other primary surfactant do you suggest to replace SLES? 

Drying the scalp is a problem that i want to avoid. Thanks for mentioning that.

If i use ammonium chloride or sodium citrate to thicken the Product instead of sodium chloride, would that also make the skin/scalp dry? 

[Abdullah]

@MapX how about sodium citrate? 

[Abdullah]

@PhilGeis @em88 it has citric acid and very small amount of that is enough to adjust the pH to what ever value they want. Sodium citrate is the second ingredient listed after the main surfactant which would be around %10 and more than CAPB, NACL and everything else. It doesn’t look that high amount of sodium citrate is there just to adjust the pH.

What other things can sodium citrate do? 

[Abdullah]

It was 6 part anionic,1part amphoteric,1part non-ionic surfactant

[Abdullah]

@Perry @singhc10 thanks.
So what would be the amount of sodium citrate which is is above CAPB, Sodium Xylenesulfonate and SLS? 
And what would it do in such high amount? 

[Abdullah]

Yes 
HLB was made for such emulsifiers

[Abdullah]

I purchase from china or India

[Abdullah]

@Perry thanks 
This Shampoo is for adults so they may be able to protect there eyes.
Is there any effort for skin and hair? 
Is it common for shampoos to use that amount of salt? 

[Abdullah]

@PhilGeis it has around %3 gingerol.
Pharma said pure ginger CO2 extract wouldn’t introduce bug food but slight additional preservation instead. So i asked what does this 20:1 extract powder do for bugs. 

It feels good on skin and make the skin a bit warm if used in lotion. Especially in cold weather. I was using it at %2.

[Abdullah]

@Pharma it is water

[Abdullah]

First thing in the water phase. 
%0.1 or %0.2. 

I use %0.2 EDTA in Shampoo

[Abdullah]

@Pharma how about 20:1 ginger concentrate powder? The suppliers say one kg of this is extracted from 20 kg ginger

[Abdullah]

If you want to use a good chelating agent use EDTA or sodium phytate wich is about 10x more expensive. 
These two are strong at pH 5.

[Abdullah]

%6 has %3 active surfactant. I have oily scalp andFor me %3 active cationic surfactant is a bit over conditioning. Maybe for them it is ok. 

Another reason for %6 my be to get enough viscosity. That you can achieve by adding fatty alcohol and it will cost you less too. 

[Abdullah]

chemicalmatt said:

@David using SPDMA (Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine, a tertiary amine) as the primary emulsifier as @EarthE has done here you will see a HUGE difference in viscosity when neutralizing with different organic acids as I noted. For simply reducing the pH of a cationic system comprising a cationic alkly quat or cationic polymer, not a great difference but citric is most likely to disrupt as he/she observed and for the reasons stated. Also, regarding EDTA or any other chelant in cationic hair conditioners, bear in mind those act as anti-redeposition agents primarily, preservative enhancers secondarily. In the case of hair conditioning you want to encourage deposition not discourage it, right? Thus I never add chelants to hair conditioners of any formulation medium. 

Does EDTA decrease the deposition of Amodimethicone from Shampoo or conditioner?

Shampoo is SLES/CAPB based.

Conditioner is cetyl alcohol, Polyglyceryl 6 distearate, Amodimethicone. 

[Abdullah]

Cationic surfactants are usually used between %1 and %2. No one uses %10 at anything

[Abdullah]

@Dreamer77 which country are you living in?