[Abdullah]

@Graillotion for up to 10kgs batch that is the way but for 50kg and 200 kg I don’t know how to weight it. Do you know any device fot that? 

Also for 50kg and above i use inline homogenizer so some of them  would be inside the pipe, although can fill the pipe and check how much material fits there. 

Another problem is the evaporation rate is different for different sizes. 
For smaller batches the evaporation rate is higher than large batches so I can’t guess it from measuring it. 

[Abdullah]

@Syl me and majority of people here have fine hair too. So my target is people with fine hair.

I have also noticed in my hair that BTMS makes my hair greasy and it feels better unconditioned than conditioned with BTMS. 

About BTAC residue, does it increase in each use if used for long term and cause buildup or it replaces the previous residue with new in each use and doesn’t buildup in long term? 

[Abdullah]

@Perry thanks

[Abdullah]

@PhilGeis hahaha yeah but knowing how you guys are doing it would help me a lot.

I did the experiment on 200g water to find the evaporation rate of water but at 200kg the evaporation rate is far less than 1% at 5 minutes. So this was not helpful ????

[Abdullah]

The batches are 50kg and 200kg. 

To find the evaporation rate of water i did an experiment. I heated 200g water to 60°c. After 5 minutes the temperature dropped to 57°c and 2g water evaporated.

Is this the correct way to evaluate? 

[Abdullah]

@kot both 

Which formula? 

[Abdullah]

@vitalys thanks

[Abdullah]

@Pharma thanks

[Abdullah]

@Pharma does any occlusive and insoluble ingredient enhance the penetration of other ingredients or just petrolatum? 

[Abdullah]

@vitalys what about glycerin? 
Doea it penetrate the skin or not? 
If yes then fast or slow?

[Abdullah]

@PhilGeis thanks 
I cant access the research. Can you please copy paste it’s text here ????

[Abdullah]

Microformulation said:

@ngarayeva001 Let me challenge you with a few other questions that may direct you to your own answer. I am sorry if it becomes pedantic.

Dimethicone 500cst is beginning to approach the more viscous grades and is in general used in skin protectants to create a barrier. I have used it in scar treatment products etc. Why would you create a product with a known barrier and add an active?  Of course, theoretically it would increase the absorption, but why?

Let’s say that you proposed a different active and designed a product with a Dimethicone barrier to increase absorption. Is this something that you should be doing?  You could increase irritation and the increase of absorption minimally. We could go back and forth, but I will say categorically that this is not an area we should explore, that being seeking a substantial skin penetration, without a great deal more technical support and I would wager a lot more letters after our names.

So, playing devil’s advocate. I submit that the dimethicone would likely increase the absorption due to the barrier it produces (much like the technical grade membranes we used in trans dermal patches but in a very crude form) and the increase in contact time due to the persistence of the dimethicone on the skin. Lets say that you decide to capitalize on this effect to increase absorption of an active. Propose to me a Cosmetic product and active where you feel that the increase in absorption is warranted or where it would be safe and responsible. Remember that you pretty quickly will tip to an OTC product if there is any significant absorption and we have ruled this out due to lack of technical support and monitored study protocols.

It is not impossible, but the effect is finite. I will propose one, sunless tanners and the use of DMI to increase the penetration of Dihydroxyacetone (DHA) into the upper levels of the skin. It is the very upper layers of the skin and finite. It is more in order to get a more consistent effect.

Don’t cite Salicylic acid in Acne care, we ruled out OTC.

@microfor@Microformulation does ingredients that create a barrier like dimethicone and petrolatum increase the absorption of other ingredients? 

If yes then why and how?

Isn’t The function of barrier to prevent or reduce the entering of substances?

[Abdullah]

Pharma said:

You mention glycerol and petrolatum… these alongside many other common ingredients can serve as penetration enhancers, are likely to be considered ‘actives’, and penetration depth does matter with these.

Every molecule (active or not) has its own requirements regarding how to enhance penetration. As an example: petroleum jelly will act as penetration enhancer for salicylic acid.

Things also depend on your definition of ‘actives’ and ‘penetration enhancer’. Lecithin and ceramides can be considered actives especially if delivered deep enough into the skin. Therefore, they may profit from penetration enhancers (which won’t be solvents like DMI or PG) or penetration enhancing formulations. The cool thing about lecithin is that it can be formulated as liposomes which transforms this excipient into a penetration enhancer, not just for actives but also for itself (if you get what I mean).

@Pharma how and why petrolatum enhances the penetration of salicylic acid? 

[Abdullah]

@DFX thanks

[Abdullah]

@vitalys that is good. 
Do you know why they emulsion breaks down when applied to skin? 

[Abdullah]

@vitalys thanks a lot for detailed information. 
You didn’t say anything about This one.
Does ingredient from an emulsion penetrate the skin in the same ratio as it is in emulsion or the emulsion breaks down and each ingredient penetrate at different rate?

For example 
A lotion 
5% petrolatum

1% beeswax
0.3% retinol 
0.3% xanthan gum 
2% glyceryl stearate

2% Polyglyceryl 6 distearate
2% cetyl alcohol 
1% glyceryl oleate

1% phenoxyethanol+caprylyl Glycol
Citric acid
Water 
pH 5

If penetration happened, does these ingredients from this lotion all penetrate in this ratio that they are in the emulsion or the emulsion breaks down and some ingredient like retinol and glyceryl oleate penetrate more and others like xanthan gum, petrolatum and beeswax penetrate less if at all?

[Abdullah]

@chemicalmatt thanks

[Abdullah]

@Pharma thanks

[Abdullah]

@Pharma for me the most important factors about emulsifier is 1. working pH range, 2. ease of use, 3. cost per product and 4. skin feel. 

I currently use Polyglyceryl 6 distearate. It works well at pH 4 and above. Only one % emulsifier is enough. No co emulsifier needed. Can make low viscosity and high viscosity emulsion by adding fatty alcohol. 

I saw SSL is 1/3 the price of it so i thought i check it if i can replace it to reduce the price more. 

What emulsifier do you suggest which is better in above 4 aspects?

[Abdullah]

RedCoast said:

I can think of several questions:

1. Whether applying antioxidant serums before applying sunscreen actually slows down skin aging/sun damage.
2. Whether adding antioxidants in sunscreens helps slow down skin aging/sun damage.
3. Whether applying antioxidants twice a day is even sufficient. It’s entirely possible the antioxidant “network” could get exhausted. It may be 3-4x a day (or more) for maximum benefits.
4. Whether applying antioxidants even “works” at all, and if so, would the formulation be too difficult/time-consuming to use or apply?
5. Whether ceramides in micro- or nanoemulsions (with or without other sufficient penetration enhancers) would actually help those with atopic dermatitis and other skin conditions… and whether they are still inferior to petrolatum and other well-established ingredients.

Okay… maybe they’re not basic questions, but this is something that’s been bugging me for a while. Particularly since Skinceuticals released their Vitamin C serum.

@@RedCoast low pH stimulates the body to produce ceramides. 

[Abdullah]

One ingredient is cream base. It means they are hiding. What is inside that cream base?

Also the name of these herbs, they don’t say if they are essential oil, extract, powder, water, color or what.

[Abdullah]

@Pharma i also use dimethicone 5cst.
Zero soaping at 3% SSL????

[Abdullah]

@Syl thanks 

[Abdullah]

@Pharma thanks 
I asked about safety of it because i was wondering if it is such effective emulsifier and thickener (thick cream with 2% SSL without any other thickener) at low pH, and very good price, why everyone is not using it? 

[Abdullah]

@PhilGeis thanks