[Abdullah]

Perry said:

@Abdullah - one of the problems with phenoxyethanol is the odor.

Yes. 
And for me reducing emulsion stability and viscosity of product is also a problem. But these two are the only options for bacteria i think. 

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

I referred to active concentration.

Thanks. 
I didn’t know phenoxyethanol is that good as anti bacterial preservative compared to DMDM hydantoin.

[Abdullah]

@PhilGeis  2000 ppm of 55% solution with is 1100ppm actual DMDM hydantoin. Am i correct? 

[Abdullah]

@Perry “They claim vitamin C provides antiwrinkling.  Ok, why not use an occlusive agent like Petrolatum that works even better?” 

Can i ask how an occlusive like petrolatum act as anti wrinkle?

[Abdullah]

I have seen some premade blends that all had ~4% propyl, ~17% methyl Paraben in phenoxyethanol and i was always thinking why this ratio. 

Maybe because more than this can not be dissolved.

Do you know how much methyl Paraben maximum alone can we dissolve in phenoxyethanol that dissolve in final water based product well too? 

[Abdullah]

Mayday said:

Thank you for that table. It’s good news, actually!

How I read the table: 1g EDTA-39% solution chelates 156 mg CaCO3. So if we had pure EDTA, 1g EDTA chelates 400mg of CaCO3.

(Then to see how related by moles… Assuming tetrasodium EDTA—else how are they getting it into the water? 0.2630mmol EDTA to 0.3996mmol CaCO3 means 1 molecule of tetrasodium EDTA chelates 1.519 molecules on average of CaCO3.)

In my case, my tap water is 156 mg/L CaCO3. So need 0.39g/L to chelate, which is only 0.039% (390ppm).

You can try this amount and see if it can make your water soft enough.

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

It’s not so much the time/kinetics as continued wetness hopefully gets into cracks, crevices etc.  There’s no way to know if that’s effectively accomplished - I’d stick with longer time.

Thanks a lot. 

This was a big part of manufacturing that i was not performing. 

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

Make sure it’d clean 1st and try to not let the sanaitizing solution dry. Repeat spraying enough to keep it wet/damp.
Long term - as your business grows, consider a plan to implement https://www.fda.gov/cosmetics/cosmetics-guidance-documents/good-manufacturing-practice-gmp-guidelinesinspection-checklist-cosmetics.

Thanks for the reference. 

I will keep it wet until fully sanitized.

By the way, it there any way to bring this 20-30 minutes sanitization time down to 5-10 minutes by increasing the chlorine percentage or that would not be a good idea? 

[Abdullah]

ketchito said:

@Abdullah You don’t need to go too high in temperature. I usually make large batches following Clariant’s recommendations for working with their Behentrimonium chloride (heating both of the two phases at 75-80°C). 

Thanks

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

Keep it wetted.
Do you have a longer term strategy to lower micro risk?

If i spray it once properly and then it dries and after 20 minutes i rinse it with water, will it be not effective?

I don’t have any strategy other than cleaning well and after now sanitizing the equipments thanks to you.

Do you have any suggestions 

[Abdullah]

Mayday said:

Depends on the level I think.

According to my municipality’s water report, my tap water is 156mg/L CaCO3. Assuming 1mol EDTA can chelate 1mol Ca2+ ions (maybe wrong, too conservative?) gave me 0.07% (700ppm) Tetrasodium EDTA when I did these calculations a while back.

Water hardness charts seem to top out at 180 mg/L but I bet there are places  with much higher levels all grouped into the “very high” category.

There’s also lead and copper that could be in the water as well from the pipes, probably at much lower levels though.

This is very hard water.

According to this chart for CaCO3 you may need 2.5 time more EDTA by weight to chelate it.

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

Use at least 2500 ppm - but parabens prob better.

Thanks a lot

[Abdullah]

Retinol oxidizes easily and these oils too. Use something that doesn’t oxidize like CCT, squalane or mineral oil. 

[Abdullah]

I would prefer adding more behenyl alcohol.

By the way, i saw somewhere that said with behenyl alcohol you should use glyceryl stearate otherwise it would not be very stable.
Are you using GMS with it or not for this reason.

I don’t know if this is true or not. That is why i am asking your experience. 

[Abdullah]

JohnS said:

chemicalmatt said:

Perry is on the mark - again - in his summation. Behenyl quat chloride (BTMC) is less expensive than the methosulfate by many $$$, and it is the alkyl quaternary that does the heavy lifting, not the anion. BTMC is the better, cheaper emulsifier too, especially when you use the 85% wax (dissolved into the water at 85 - 90C.) As for efficacy, the behenyl quats lend a softness to hair and skin substantially better than the lower homologs STEARAC, CETAC. Summing up: friends, don’t let friends use BTMS-25 or 50 when BTMC 85% can be had. 

Thanks for the additional info, Matt. Through anecdotal evidence/perception I can confirm that the behenyls outperform the others.

By “the 85% wax” you meant for example - Incroquat Behenyl TMC-85, INCI: Behentrimonium Chloride (and) Isopropyl Alcohol - or something else?

Yes

[Abdullah]

@chemicalmatt 90°c in too high temperature and would be difficult to work at Specially in lage quantity for small manufacturer.

Can we dissolve BTMC in small percentage of water at 90°c and add that to main water at ~60°c and add fatty alcohol and other ingredients at this temperature? 

[Abdullah]

Thanks 

Yes the water we use is hard water. But isn’t very small amount of EDTA enough to make hard water soft? Like 60ppm

[Abdullah]

@PhilGeisfor now i don’t have such spray ball available. 

I have this type of hand spray available. Will this work?
I can spray any part of tank with this because tank is only 200kg size. Not so big.

[Abdullah]

@PhilGeis do you have any comments on above question. 

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

You can try it
I agree - prefer parabens (0.2 methyl/0.1 propyl)/

Thanks a lot. 

As i import these ingredients from another country, right now i can afford only one Paraben because i have to purchase it in 25kg standard size. So will purchase only methyl Paraben.
I will use it in combination with phenoxyethanol or DMDM hydantoin. 

So do you have any suggestions on how much

 methyl Paraben+ phenoxyethanol+ EDTA 
Or 
Methyl Paraben+ DMDM hydantoin+ EDTA?

Both at pH 4.1 and 5.1.

[Abdullah]

Mayday said:

According to this paper, they got a solubility of 5.947 mol IPBC/kg in ethanol at 25C. Given a molar mass of 281.03 g/mol, that gives a solubility of 167.1% in ethanol.

I don’t think I’m mistaken in my interpretation, because of the following passage:

[…]The solubility of
triclosan and IPBC in different alcohols is too high to be measured by
the analytical method; thus, the gravimetric method was selected
for this study.[…]

My plan was to solubilize IPBC in phenoxyethanol and then add it to formula. There are 1%,2% and 10% IPBC in phenoxyethanol commercially available so solubility would not be a problem. What i wanted to know was that which one is better value for money . 0.2% methyl Paraben is better value for money than IPBC if they are similarly effective. 

[Abdullah]

Yes you can use it

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

try 100 ppm but you need to get it into the product - pretty insoluble.
 

Thanks 

Looks like IPBC is not a good option compared to Paraben.

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

Generally true for shampoo - cream/lotion susceptible to both.

Thanks

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

Formaldehyde labeling would be required for formalin and in  many countries and EU for formaldehyde releaser.

Thanks