What is the Best emollient or the gold standard of emollients in an emulsion?

Abdullah

Member

August 26, 2021 at 12:49 pm

I see isopropyl palmitate in combination with glycerin and petrolatum a lot from big companies like Aveeno. What is your thoughts about this?

@Abdullah I don’t believe there is one solid choice here. This category has more flexibility and it all depends on the sensory attributes of the lipid that you desire, playtime, oxidative stability if using plant lipids, volatility, etc.

Graillotion

Member

August 26, 2021 at 7:11 pm

Is your main criteria…value?

Otherwise the Swiss and I would probably say…Mac Nut oil.

Is it the most slippery…NO

Most Cost effective… NO

Good for label and skin… YES

Hehehe…narrow your parameters a bit.

For pure slip and slide… I like IL, and LL…. and then I have a whole group of secondaries that I insert based on the product….face….hand….body….etc.

Also….I suppose the country you live in…and what is available…is a major factor.

If veggie oils can be players… Babassu…is always at the top of my list.

OldPerry

Member

August 26, 2021 at 7:31 pm

Probably mineral oil

Abdullah

Member

August 27, 2021 at 3:16 am

@MattTheChemist the main focus is on how much emollience it provide and the value. In feelings the drier the better. Other things are not important.

Graillotion

Member

August 27, 2021 at 3:31 am

How about IPM then?

I just spent the last week trying to formulate it out of a formula…and the end result was…. I now have double the amount of IPM in the formula.

Abdullah

Member

August 27, 2021 at 3:34 am

@Graillotion the main criteria is it’s value for money and how much emollience and benefit it provide for skin.
Like Petrolatum and glycerin which are best in what they are supposed to do. not the skin feel. Although a drier skin feel is preferred.

I already use 5% petrolatum and 20% glycerin in this product and am using dimethicone 5cst to adjust the skin feel. I have tested may moisturizers that have glycerin and petrolatum as first 2 ingredients after water and the skin feel is not very pleasant in ether of them so that is not a priority for me too.

what is good about macadamia nut oil? You have mentioned only label name.

What would you change for face hand and body product as emollient?

Here only vegetable oils like sesame oil, mustard oil, flaxseed oil is available. I purchase everything from china and India so no problem in purchasing from these two countries.

Abdullah

Member

August 27, 2021 at 3:41 am

Graillotion said:

How about IPM then?

I just spent the last week trying to formulate it out of a formula…and the end result was…. I now have double the amount of IPM in the formula.

@g@Graillotion three ingredients that i thought you guys may recommend was isopropyl Myristate, isopropyl palmitate and coconut oil ????. There prices are also good.

what benefits did you like about isopropyl Myristate and how do you compare it to isopropyl palmitate and coconut oil?

Abdullah

Member

August 27, 2021 at 3:56 am

@Perry how do you compare mineral oil vs coconut oil when there already is 5% petrolatum in the formula?

This study shows coconut oil is a bit better than mineral oil for xerosis.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15724344/

Graillotion

Member

August 27, 2021 at 6:58 am

Abdullah said:

Graillotion said:

How about IPM then?

I just spent the last week trying to formulate it out of a formula…and the end result was…. I now have double the amount of IPM in the formula.

@g@Graillotion three ingredients that i thought you guys may recommend was isopropyl Myristate, isopropyl palmitate and coconut oil ????. There prices are also good.

what benefits did you like about isopropyl Myristate and how do you compare it to isopropyl palmitate and coconut oil?

I do not use the latter two, so I can not compare them. It is one of the few ingredients that promises a less oily/greasy feel…that for me…actually delivers on that promise. (I would find it hard to imagine that coconut oil would deliver the dry feel that IPM can.)

Abdullah

Member

August 27, 2021 at 8:34 am

@Graillotion thanks a lot

Pattsi

Member

August 27, 2021 at 11:10 am

Results: Coconut oil and mineral oil have comparable effects. Both oils showed effectivity through significant improvement in skin hydration and increase in skin surface lipid levels. Safety was demonstrated through no significant difference in TEWL and skin pH. Subjective grading of xerosis by the investigators and visual analogue scales used by the patients showed a general trend toward better (though not statistically evident) improvement with coconut oil than with mineral oil. Safety for both was further demonstrated by negative patch-test results prior to the study and by the absence of adverse reactions during the study.

Conclusion: Coconut oil is as effective and safe as mineral oil when used as a moisturizer.

5% petrolatum and 20% glycerin?

Abdullah

Member

August 27, 2021 at 11:15 am

Pattsi said:

Results: Coconut oil and mineral oil have comparable effects. Both oils showed effectivity through significant improvement in skin hydration and increase in skin surface lipid levels. Safety was demonstrated through no significant difference in TEWL and skin pH. Subjective grading of xerosis by the investigators and visual analogue scales used by the patients showed a general trend toward better (though not statistically evident) improvement with coconut oil than with mineral oil. Safety for both was further demonstrated by negative patch-test results prior to the study and by the absence of adverse reactions during the study.

Conclusion: Coconut oil is as effective and safe as mineral oil when used as a moisturizer.

5% petrolatum and 20% glycerin?

Yes.
The purpose of this product is to provide maximum benefit as a moisturizer.
It is targeted to people with very dry skin.

vitalys

Member

August 27, 2021 at 12:57 pm

@Abdullah I assume 20% is too much for the moisturizing product. This high glycerin content will have opposite effect and the skin will become even drier.

OldPerry

Member

August 27, 2021 at 1:28 pm

@Abdullah - I don’t think the study shows coconut oil is “a bit better”. At best it shows that it is no worse than mineral oil under those test conditions. As they also say “…there are no clinical studies to document the efficacy and safety of coconut oil as a skin moisturizer.” (I don’t think this is true but I’ll accept what they say).

The results from one study should never be looked at as definitive. Mineral Oil has been the standard emollient used in the cosmetic industry for a reason.

But as far as emollients go, I’m sure coconut oil or pretty much anything else is fine. People are not very good at telling subtle differences.

Abdullah

Member

August 28, 2021 at 3:14 am

vitalys said:

@Abdullah I assume 20% is too much for the moisturizing product. This high glycerin content will have opposite effect and the skin will become even drier.

@vitalys it also has petrolatum to prevent the evaporation. Why do you think the skin would become Dry?

In theory More glycerin will suck more water from lower to upper layer of skin and then petrolatum will prevent the evaporation of that water. So the upper layer of skin would be more moist. Also 20% glycerin function as skin protectant too.

Abdullah

Member

August 28, 2021 at 3:17 am

@Perry i thought this part mean coconut oil is a bit better than mineral oil.

Subjective grading of xerosis by the investigators and visual analogue scales used by the patients showed a general trend toward better (though not statistically evident) improvement with coconut oil than with mineral oil.

Graillotion

Member

August 28, 2021 at 4:19 am

vitalys said:

@Abdullah I assume 20% is too much for the moisturizing product. This high glycerin content will have opposite effect and the skin will become even drier.

I think the confusion lies with using 100% Glycerin….where drying can occur. I took the liberty of pasting a blurb from inci decoder, below:

Geeky Details

Glycerin doesn’t sound very glamorous but it is a real oldie but a goodie. It’s been used in cosmetics for more than 50 years and it’s a totally natural ingredient that’s also in the outermost layer of our skin (called stratum corneum - SC).

It’s a so-called humectant type of moisturiser meaning that it helps our skin to cling onto water. A 2005 study has shown that glycerin levels correlate with skin hydration levels, so more glycerin means better hydrated skin.

As newer studies examine glycerin it turns out more and more that it’s not just a simple humectant but also does some other important things:

It makes sure that the gooey stuff between the skin cells is neither too diluted nor too concentrated (it’s called osmoregulation)
It helps to maintain the healthy state of the cell membranes and intracellular lipids (keeping the lipids in a nice liquid crystal state that is optimal for barrier function)
It can normalize skin shedding in very dry skin.
It protects against skin irritation (such as washing your face too much and/or too aggressively)

What this all means is that glycerin is a real superstar and helps to maintain the healthy state of our skin in several ways.

And there is even more. If your skin is severely dry, you have to read this. A large-scale study done with 394 guys and girls with dry skin compared two high-glycerin (containing 25% and 40% glycerin) moisturizers to 16 other popular moisturizers on the market (that had less than 6% glycerin). The two high-glycerin ones won hands down. They had superior, quick-acting hydrating properties and they also seemed to create a “reservoir” of moisture-holding ability in the skin. This means that even after not using the high-glycerin moisturizer the skin stayed hydrated longer compared to all the other low glycerin moisturizers.

You might think now that this is sooo awsome I will go to the pharmacy right now buy some glycerin and put it on my face. Well, do not do that. 100% pure glycerin is not good for the skin either. Too much glycerin (and in general humectants) might attract water out of the lower layers of the skin. That’s a problem because once water is in the upper layer some of it will evaporate. It’s called trans-epidermal-water-loss (TEWL). If too much TEWL happens your skin becomes dry.

This is confirmed by a study too: skin treated to 99.7% glycerin for 5 days showed that after the treatment the SC (do you remember? it’s the outermost layer of the skin) was not visibly different from the untreated control. The same study also examined skin treated with a 25% glycerin lotion and there the SC had a visibly different, expanded - in other words more hydrated - appearance.

So the thing to know about the optimal amount of glycerin is this: it is an effective molecule already from 3% (even from 1%, at least when combined with skin lipids), and the benefits tend to increase up until 20-40%. Around 10%, glycerin seems to have a reals sweet spot in terms of effects and usability. This amount is still possible to formulate into a relatively light, non-sticky and not too heavy formula (yes, glycerin is sticky and high % is really hard to formulate into a cosmetically elegant formula) but 10% also shows all the great therapeutic effects including effective moisturization with a reservoir effect, protecting against irritation, maintaining a healthy skin barrier and making the skin just smooth and plump.

So bottom line: glycerin is a real goodie and far more than a simple moisturizer. In our opinion, it is an underappreciated superstar that deserves more spotlight than it is currently getting

vitalys

Member

August 30, 2021 at 4:02 pm

@Abdullah
@Graillotion Yes, all that true, but there is neither discrepancy nor conflict. The article you have posted has been based of multiple studies (both double-blind and “commercial”). Most of them show the results of the relatively short term use with different % of Glycerol. The thing is that the highly effective moisturizers actually become a lifelong remedy for people with clinical signs of xerosis or chronic skin dryness. The long term use of the preparations with high Glycerin content leads to even more severe symptoms of xerosis and related inflammation, especially if Glycerin is the only humectant in the formulation. Hypothetically it can be explained by forming that “reservoir” or a depo of Glycerol, which may work as undiluted compound with time, continuous altering of the vital structures in SC and osmotic stress at the moment when the treatment stops. Practically, according to my experience during several trials of highly concentrated Glycerin formulations, majority of people run into severer xerosis than they had before the long term treatment. I tend to call this literally “withdrawal syndrome” when one suddenly stops the cure. That was the reason why we reduced the Glycerol presence in the formulation at least in half.
As I said above, the most effective and safe moisturizer should contain more than one humectant and one occlusive component, and the mixture of actives should cover all aspects of the normal skin water content from aquaporins to NMF and the structure of the lipids. Inclusion of NMF components (Urea, lactates, ammonium salts), lipids (ceramides, sterols/cholesterol, some of fatty acids, squalene, etc) all they will ensure efficient product for xerotic skin conditions in a long term perspective.

OldPerry

Member

August 30, 2021 at 6:39 pm

@Abdullah - The important parts of this sentence…

“Subjective grading of xerosis by the investigators and visual analogue scales used by the patients showed a general trend toward better (though not statistically evident) improvement with coconut oil than with mineral oil.”

So, this subjective test (no formal measurement) found a general trend (whatever this means) that was not statistically significant. Statistically significant means that it is likely to be a real difference. When something is not statistically significant, that means it is unlikely that there is actually a real difference.

Think of it like this. Say you flip a coin two times & it comes up heads both times. You could say that there is a “general trend for this coin to favor heads over tails”. Would you believe that the statement is actually true?

Suppose you flip a coin 10 times and it comes up heads 6 out of 10. Again, you could say there is a general trend for the coin to favor heads over tails. Would you believe it?

When making a claim about any ingredient / technology, you can essentially reject anything that is not statistically significant. Ingredient marketers or other motivated people say things like “general trends”. That doesn’t mean anything.

Incidentally, it also doesn’t necessarily mean anything even if something was statistically significant in one study. It is only through multiple studies over time that we can really learn anything.

No, this study does not even come close to proving coconut oil is better than mineral oil. At best, you can say it’s not worse.

OldPerry

Member

August 30, 2021 at 6:42 pm

@vitalys - What evidence has convinced you of this?

“The long term use of the preparations with high Glycerin content leads to even more severe symptoms of xerosis and related inflammation, especially if Glycerin is the only humectant in the formulation.“

I tend to believe that “less is better” (except in cases where it is not).

So, the ideal moisturizer would contain…

Water
Petrolatum
Glycerin
Mineral Oil

Do you have any published evidence that this notion is mistaken?

vitalys

Member

August 31, 2021 at 4:04 pm

@Perry Re: “The long term use of the preparations with high Glycerin content leads to even more severe symptoms of xerosis and related inflammation, especially if Glycerin is the only humectant in the formulation.” - We all know Glycerol is a well studied substance, however, there are many effects of it deserve additional studies and many of the effects are still unknown. I can only share the results we (a groups of cosmetic chemists and dermatologists) we got after commercial studies for a company I used to work for. The company decided to launch the product for strictly professional use by dermatologists, podiatrists, etc. The formulation should contain 20-50% of Glycerin in a relatively simple formulation. Unfortunately, the results have remained unpublished because the company decided to keep it for its own records and use. The purpose of the study was to compare the regular and high Glycerin content to select the right formulation for the product as well as to use the results for marketing. The results were confirmed with corneometry, assessment of TEWL and clinical evaluation of the skin condition. We came to the following conclusions:
Formulations with high Glycerin content are highly efficient to achieve fast, immediate moisturizing effect for short term use. When it was used for a long period of time (2-3 months considering that the skin cells turnout is approx. 30 days), the sudden cessation in treatment caused the worsening of xerosis in 3-7 days. In contrast, the formulations with 7-12% of Glycerin didn’t show symptoms of the xerosis relapse. The addition of 7-10% of Urea (10% most preferable) was efficient in terms of symptoms relief. Addition of sugar alcohols (sorbitol and/or xylitol) was also highly efficient. We didn’t study the mechanisms that stood behind the effects, but of course we just could hypothesize. We ended with the final formulation with 10% of Glycerin, Urea, Sorbitol, Lactic acid, TMG Betaine in o/w carrier. Why 10% ? Because our results correlated with one study where “Four days of twice daily 10% glycerol applications completely reversed the hydration abnorm-alities in asebia J1 SC, and significantly, but incompletely, reversed the abnormality in asebia 2 J animals. Lower concentrations (i.e., from 0.1% to 5% glycerol) significantly increased SC hydration in asebia 2 J animals, but only concentrations above 1% exceeded the impact of the aqueous vehicle alone. In contrast, glycerol concentrations above 10% did not increase SC hydration further…” Again, unfortunately, the current studies don’t answer many questions regarding the Glycerin and its activity in skin.
Glycerol Regulates Stratum Corneum Hydration in Sebaceous Gland Deficient (Asebia) Mice - Journal of Investigative Dermatology (jidonline.org)
Re: “Water
Petrolatum
Glycerin
Mineral Oil”
I won’t dispute this notion is mistaken, since this basic formulation sounds axiomatic to me. I can say the Mineral oil is still the best unparalleled occlusive and emollient (to me). Glycerin is a dose dependent active and can be used even in high concentrations for rinse off formulations, for instance. Although, it ensures the skin hydration only due to occlusive effect effect of Petrolatum/Mineral Oil and Glycerin as only humectant. I assume it is still insufficient in terms of xerosis, the modern standpoint of knowledge about SC and long term use without additional components that I mentioned above. Those components may turn this basic formulation to a better solution because they impact the prime causes of the condition. In other words, the Mineral oil and Glycerin will only solve the symptoms where we can correct the possible source of the problem, e.g. impaired barrier function.

Leo_Opolain

Member

September 1, 2021 at 2:47 pm

A very useful reply. I’m glad I dropped by here. Thank you all for the answers.

vitalys said:

@Perry Re: “The long term use of the preparations with high Glycerin content leads to even more severe symptoms of xerosis and related inflammation, especially if Glycerin is the only humectant in the formulation.” - We all know Glycerol is a well studied substance, however, there are many effects of it deserve additional studies and many of the effects are still unknown. I can only share the results we (a groups of cosmetic chemists and dermatologists) we got after commercial studies for a company I used to work for. ….

Abdullah

Member

September 2, 2021 at 11:01 am

@vitalys thanks a lot

Graillotion

Member

November 10, 2021 at 7:37 pm

I have a new favorite:

Pelemol 899

INCI Name: Isononyl Isononanoate (and) Ethylhexyl Isononanoate

And yes..I tried them both individually…but definitely a synergy together.

Aloha.