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Was there something wrong with the preservative? Should I sue?
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What a shame there’s people who will continue to work like this and practically scam customers. We should have some sort of blacklist.
This explains a little the cold war between freelance formulators and contract manufacturers (at least the serious ones, and not the ones who like to have the customers on a leash).
If you have the chance to continue doing business (I hope you do) consider finding another contract manufacturer. Even if the formula was wrong and you got a bad advice, the manufacturer should have known better and offer you technical assistance.
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Well, the tales of @GabyD and @Betterusername are failures on the part of the chemists they hired on the most basic business fundamentals … client communications and delivering on what you were paid/hired to do. I think there’s a word that.
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Just to confirm, @Betterusername were in contact via PM and we both used the same formulator!
One thing I would say to all the formulators and Contract Manufacturers out there is please PLEASE give a deadline and stick to it. And if a bigger contract comes along, please don’t just dump us smaller companies, particularly when we have paid you thousands of dollars.
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I did find “Carol” to be very generous when she did get around to doing the work, I think there were good intentions for the most part which is why I stuck with it for so (too) long. As Perry said that’s only part of the job though, if a formulator doesn’t give the client a finished formula they can actually take to a manufacturer, or if they don’t communicate properly, that can cripple their clients business. I think a business which is regularly failing customers in that way has a duty to fix it, even if it’s by hiring people to do the bits they’re struggling with like talking to clients or finishing off lab work, and hiking their fees. I’d happily pay much more for a better experience as otherwise it costs me in the end anyway.
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@Betterusername, I agree with everything you said. This is our livelihood. My business and ultimately my children have suffered as a result of someone else’s incompetence and that makes me very angry.
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GabyD said:@ngarayeva001 Thanks, that’s very kind of you to say. Is the formula really that bad 😮 ?
Sorry for my intervention but I saw your formula and to me it looks cheap, I saw later that you speak of loses around 100K. In order to make this formula I would need to spend about €2000,00 for every 100kg batch. The most expensive ingredient on your list is the Aloe Vera powder (I would imagine it is 200x). For “natural” and “green” preservatives I would use Spectrastat/Lexfeel GMCY by Inolex or Dermosoft OMP / GMCY by Dr. Straetmans. There is one more that I cant recall the name of and is derived by the Japanese Honeysuckle and costs about €200,00/kg
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It’s not how much it’s cost me, it is the losses from two large orders that I had, one from an online shopping channel who ordered over $100k worth of stock. That order has now been cancelled due to the preservative issue. The other order was for 1,600 units from another company. Again, that has been cancelled due to the preservative issue. The first company cancelled due to the delays it caused (they have gone with another supplier) and the second company cancelled because they were worried about safety. Rightly so.
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And thanks for your suggestions @Dreamer77. We are giving Microcare SB another go with a lower pH. We should start getting results back from the PET in about 7 days.
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We are giving Microcare SB another go with a lower pH.
Haven’t you learned yet? That preservative is good for shampoo. I would never use it with a skin product. -
Hi @Belassi, the manufacturers are insistent it should work and are providing full PET for free.
But I’m listening… please tell me why it is not good and what alternatives there are that are Ecocert approved and Palm Oil-Free. Thanks.
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No offense, but it would be good to hear Carol’s side as well. In some cases, it comes down to a contract issue such as they have completed the work. For example, in many contracts, the work product ends upon approval of the Formulation. It is for this reason that many insist upon detailed work-for-hire contracts. Did you approve the initial Formulation?Let me relay an experience. We did a Sunscreen. It met all the testing requirements and the Formulation was approved. For a very silly reason, the client returned and insisted upon a full reformulation, not due to performance, but marketing. (They cited an Etsy seller who touted that her unregistered homemade sunscreen was “silica free” and now hers had to be silica free.) We are a Business and I simply refused to return all the way to the first step of redoing the Product Development, Formulations, and Testing. She then insisted that since “we used the silica” we should pay to repeat the testing. There is not a Formulator on this board that would likely have taken the hit as it was silly and not reflected anywhere in the paperwork they submitted. She cajoled and threatened. We disengaged.In that case, I am sure they stated their side of the story that I was a “Carol.”Every Professional Formulator, if they have done credible work, has had a client like this.Not disbelieving any story, but as someone who adheres to the Scientific method, I need more data. Just making a fair counterpoint. -
@Microformulation, I would never expect a formulator to reformulate for free, and you are certainly not a “Carol”. In our case, Carol made a sample for us and we were very happy with it. The day we got it I emailed her and said it was amazing, thank you so much, please can we push forward, etc. She emailed me ONCE to say “I have only gone and made it better!” then we did not hear from her for months. I kept emailing, calling, but nothing. I only knew she was still alive because she was posting on Instagram. This went on for 7 months.
I mentioned this to one of her colleagues as I was afraid that I had done something to upset her. He laughed and reassured me that she’s like that with everyone. Really enthusiastic at the beginning then quickly loses interest.
I was also contacted by someone on here who recognised her pattern of behaviour because it had happened to them. Another of “Carol’s” victims.
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Well, I guess my best advice is to avoid a Formulator who “teaches” these subjects as a Primary Contractor. While there are some outstanding educators out there (Perry, Jane Barber, Susan Barclay), there also some whose primary qualification to “teach” is a camera, an Internet connection, and a dangerously sparse knowledge base. For example, I have had some people come to me with Elementary questions that show they have a gap in their knowledge and need to grow quite a bit. Three months later I have seen them teaching classes.I think as Perry pointed out if they are on Twitter, Instagram, etc. that could reflect an imbalance in their priorities and would be a reason to pass. As you can attest, there was probably a point where you wished “Carol” taught less and networked less online and simply got into the Lab and did what you paid her to do.
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Another point about Carol is that I paid a hefty deposit for the IP. I attempted to pay the balance but she refused to sign the IP Agreement. She wanted to use her own IP Agreement, not the proper one drawn up by a solicitor. Then last week I heard from a mutual acquaintance in the industry that she was hawking our formula around trying to sell the IP to the highest bidder.
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THAT is a danger sign also. Keep in mind that many Formulators will NOT sign an NDA at all. We do. We have a sample NDA which we provide to our less sophisticated clients. If they submit a prepared NDA, I have it reviewed. True story, I was once contracted to do two Formulations. The client sent me an NDA with a noncompete clause that would have banned me from Formulating for 5 years. That isn’t my opinion. tt was the feedback our Attorney gave us. I refused to sign that NDA.And when Carol took that deposit, she should have logged off and gotten busy. No offense, but I don’t see a great deal of sophistication in your Formulation.
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I just wish there were some good formulators and manufacturers in Australia who didn’t let you down. Seriously, the last thing I want to be doing is formulating and making my own products but I have no choice.
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I don’t understand one thing.. All these O/W moisturisers are so similar. An experienced formulator can write hundreds of formulas without much effort. If you create a stable chassis you can play with oils as much as you want and you have a different product. Why people get so attached to their formulas? I understand it’s very difficult to create a sunscreen or w/si emulsion that doesn’t separate. But these O/W moisturisers.. Just write another one!
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90% of moisturisers sold in drug stores (Boots, Walgreens, CVS you name it) be like:
INCI Percentage to be used Aqua qs to 100 Glycerin 3.00% Propylene Glycol 1.00% Xanthan gum 0.20% Disodium EDTA 0.20% Dimethicone 1.00% Paraffinum Liquidum 6.00% Fancy oil #1 x Fancy oil #2 x Fancy oil #3 x Tocopherol 0.10% BHT 0.10% Cetearyl Alcohol 3.00% Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl
Acrylate Crosspolymer0.20% Glyceryl Stearate/PEG-100
Stearate
Fancy useless extract for claims 0.1%qs Parabens Based preservative qs NaOH qs Citric
acidqs This is your “NiveaNeutrogenaOlayNo7” you name it. All are the same. No magic and no art either.
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So, if I understand this correctly @GabyD … you are now going to continue to use the original preservative that caused burning and failed the PCT …
… you manufactured two large batches of product without confirming that is passed PCT after adjusting the pH up
… and, you gave a formulator a deposit on the IP, but without having signed an IP agreement concurrent with making the payment?
There’s a clear pattern emerging here of poor business judgement. No offense, but all of these appear to be self-inflicted wounds that have nothing to do with the formula per-se. It seems you need to reflect on that some.
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@Dreamer77 already gave you good options.
We’ve been using Spectrastat G2 for over 4 years and have products that old still preserved. -
@MarkBroussard, I am aware of how it looks, but I am trying to salvage a deal so am going along with the manufacturers to try to resolve things. They are carrying out PET for free and we will then see whether or not the MSB works. If not, then it will be incumbent upon them to provide an alternative.
We are very limited in that we can only use ingredients approved by Ecocert and we are also palm oil-free so that limits us even further.
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… and regarding the IP. I gave her $2k as payment for manufacturing a small run of creams. However, she failed to deliver on this so we agreed to offset it against the IP.
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My goodness … what a mess. Sorry to see anyone go through this as it is completely unnecessary. I do hope it all works out for you.
The moral of the story is: If it’s not documented and executed by both parties in advance, then you have at best a verbal agreement, which can be found to be binding contractually, but she can always claim something different from you and you have no proof otherwise. “Handshake” business is never a good practice.
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So my mouldy Day Cream sample is back from the preservative manufacturers. They said it is contaminated with Penicillium spp. They also said that, at pH 5.9, the pH is way above the level Microcare SB will be effective in preserving the product.
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@Pharma
Nice to read I’m not the only one using a mortar and pestle (+ steel spatula and mortar cards?)
@Perry
(…)I’d still recommend working with a formulator who has a science background over one who doesn’t. (…)Totally agree!
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