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Vitamin c serum help
My formula
Ascorbic acid 17%Vitamin E 1%Wheat germ oil !%Propylene glycole 10%Glycerin 3%Dimethicone 350 1%Water to 100 ml.My problem mixing vitmain E & Wheat germ oil.I dissolved oil in benzyl alcohol then add PG. but Oil returns.Top vitamin c serum brands are made of Ascorbic acid..I also want to add Ferulic acid later.Well how to dissolve oil & what base should be?Is PG 10% enough?Does Serum means Syrupy liquid? -
49 Replies
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“but Oil returns.”- You are trying to mix water and oil without an emulsifier. It must separate.
“Top vitamin c serum brands are made of Ascorbic acid..” - Such a vague statement… Doesn’t mean they are good.
“Well how to dissolve oil & what base should be?” - Add an emulsifier.“Is PG 10% enough? ” - Enough for what? What is the function of PG in your formula? Is is a preservative? I am not sure I would rely on 10% of PG as a preservative.
“Does Serum means Syrupy liquid?” - It’s a marketing term. It can mean whatever you want it to mean. There are silicone based serums, oil based serums, water based serums.
Want a quick fix? Get inspiration here: https://store.deciem.com/crossbar/cookieconsent?ReturnUrl=https%3A%2F%2Ftheordinary.com%2Fproduct%2Frdn-ascorbic-acid-8pct-alpha-arbutin-2pct-30ml -
Why complicate your formula for the sake of adding 1% Wheat Germ Oil? The addition of oils requires that you also addd either a solubilizer or emulsifier.
But, if you are intent on including Vitamin E, Wheat Germ Oil and Dimethicone in your formula, then your best bet for emulsifiers would be Glyceryl Oleate or Sucrose Stearate … neither will thicken the formula.
No, you do not have enough Propylene Glycol at 10% … you will want more on the order of 30%.
If you want to thicken it up. hydroxypropylmethylcellulose works well in formulations with a high proportion of propylene glycol.
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Also, the L-ascorbic acid will not be stable in such an aqueous medium. I would research this topic as there are numerous previous posts regarding its instability. You will see browning of the solution fairly quickly.
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Oh boy.. I have a couple comments to start
- Which form of Vitamin E are you using? Typically when we post on this forum you’ll get best responses if you post INCI names. Vitamin E could mean Tocopherol, Tocopheryl Acetate, etc.
- you have no emulsifier to help your ‘vitamin E’ , oil, and dimethicone so yes things will separate
- If you are using benzyl alcohol to help incorporate ingredients then it is now part of your formula and you need to factor that percentage in.
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Glyceryl Oleate? Hm… I thought it’s low HLB W/O emulsifier and only acts as a stabiliser in O/W emulsions. You leave and learn!
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I thought so too. But hypothetically, I can imagine that in a 30% propylene glycol solution apparent HLBs should be different (higher) and glyceryl oleate perform “better” since it has a higher solubility in the not so aqueous water phase…As a side note: Sucrose stearate has not one HLB since sucrose stearate is not a single molecular entity in a chemical sense but, especially if used as food additive, a mixture of either mono- to heptastearates (see also food additive E 473) or mono- and diester mixed with residual glyceryl mono-, di-, and tristearate (usually referred to as sucroglycerides aka E 474). Hence, “sucrose stearate” can cover every HLB from 1 to 16 (HLB 16 is hypothetical and would be pure monoester, HLB 15 is the commercial highest grade with >70% sucrose monostearate, HLB 11 is ~50-60% monoester and ~30% diester, HLB 6 is each ~30-40% mono- and diesters, HLB 3 is roughly equal amounts of mono- to tetraesters, and HLB 1 about equal amounts of tetra- to heptaesters according to THIS publication). -> Question @MarkBroussard: Which sucrose stearate are you referring to? -
Sisterna SP70C
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@amitvedakar, ascorbic acid is stable in the acidic environments with pH< 5
you can try using emulsifier, Sepiplus 400. It is freedom formulation. -
Thank you all.I omit Wheat germ & dimethicone.PG for moisturizing & I thought only water base not good for application & feel.Vitamin E liquid is DL alha tocopherol acetate.can i use vitamin as powder.Vitamin E acetate powder comes in 50%. (solubility checking).I also dissolve LAA 17% in IPA 20 to 30% & other PG to make 100. solution found no color fade for two month. but can apply on face.I found sodium gluconate in some serum formula as stabilizer. but they use derivative of vitamin c. does it work in Ascorbic acid formula.Emulsifier suggested by @MarkBroussard & @Dtdang are new for me.I have lot to work on this.Thank You all once again for taking interest in my problem. -
@amitvedakar, don’t start with vitamin c serum. LAA is utterly unstable. You should understand how to make a simple and stable emulsion first. Again if you want to create a product the first step is to analyze as many commercial products as possible and understand what they have in common. You are trying to mix water and oil without an emulsifier and add 20% of humectants. I don’t even see a preservative in your formula. Start from the beginning not from the middle.
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If you absolutely need to have that Vitamin C serum, dissolve LAA in PG and don’t add anything else at all. Alternatively dissolve LAA in dimethicone and also don’t add anything else. It’s not going to be a pleasant product but at least relatively stable and safe. You won’t generally need a preservative if there’s absolutely no water. Check the link I posted above.
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@ngarayeva001 thank you.Link info Lot to learn.Preservative Should be Sod. Methyl Paraben+ SPP.I avoided first because I want to try primary mixing.
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Vitamin C (L-Ascorbic Acid) is very unstable in water … it oxidizes very qucikly. Vitamin E in the form of Alpha Tocopherol helps stabilize the L-Ascorbic Acid. Ferulic Acid + Alpha Tocopherol better stabilizes the LAA.
(1) HIgh percentages of glycols, such as PG or Ethyoxydiglycol, are added to Vitamin C serum products not as moisturizers, but to reduce the water activity to extend the period over with the Vitamin C oxidizes. You’ll need to add at least 30% Glycol to a Vitamin C serum.
(2) Tocopherol Acetate will not stabilize LAA, so you’re not using the correct form of Vitamin E.
(3) If you are going to add Alpha Tocopherol as your only oil ingredient, then you are better off using a solubilizer … Poly Suga Mulse D9 would be a recommendation.
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Thank you very much for your guidance.At present I have limited material.
Formula makeover required.
So arranging material and restart.Meanwhile I try for water qty to solublize LAA & remaining PG.I have also Tween80 & PEG 40 Hydrogenated castor oil. Try to solublize vitamin E acetate.Thank you all for taking interest & valuable guidance. -
@amitvedakar you do not have to use hlb system. It is freedom formulation
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What on earth do you mean by “freedom formulation”?
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tocophrol acetate is soluble in PEG 40 Hydrogenated castor oil. (1:5)but adding Water make the solution hazy.
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What about 3-O-Ethyl Ascorbic Acid?above ingredient suggested by supplier.and adding Hyaluronic Acid instead of vitamin E.well the cost of alpha tocopherol & Dl alpha tocopherol is 4 fold.Hyaluronic Acid is not cheap too. but available in gm. and required percentage is less.there are three types available. would go for middle (Medium molecular weight).What are suggestions/ Guidances?
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I heard about 3-O-Ethyl Ascorbic Acid and tried a couple of commercial products made with it. I however noticed they were anhydrous. Is it water soluble? Not all forms of vitamin c are water soluble.
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ngarayeva001 said:I heard about 3-O-Ethyl Ascorbic Acid and tried a couple of commercial products made with it. I however noticed they were anhydrous. Is it water soluble? Not all forms of vitamin c are water soluble.It is water soluble. My supplier can also supply MAP-ASCOBAT-C.He suggested 3-5% MAP. Is MAP effective alternative?My 20% LAA solution has 2 pH. How to get pH 4.Preservative SMP & SPP.Does BHT & BHA work here?
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Is MAP an effective alternative.. It depends what you mean by effective. If your question is whether MAP makes skin lighter (that’s a typical claim) my answer it no, it is not.
To elevate pH you can either use sodium hydroxide solution or triethanolamine.
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If you want to make a MAP-based, Vitamin C/Hyaluronic Acid Serum … Yes, 3% to 5% MAP is just fine. The native pH of MAP is in the range 6.0. It is water-soluble and stable, so you will not really need/benefit from BHA/BHT both of which are oil-soluble and will just complicate your formula.
As for Hyaluronic Acid, if you can get it, use a combination of Super Low Molecular Weight HA with a mid-weight HA. The SLMW will penetrate the dermis and the mid-weight will form a TEWL reducing film on the surface of the skin.
Your formula could be as simple as:
Water
MAP (5%)
HA (SLMW) 0.3%
HA (800 - 1200 kDa) 0.7%
Preservative -
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What do you think about adding L-glutahione in above suggested formula?
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Of course. I just finished making a Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid) powder formulation for a client that included L-Glutathione as an ingredient.
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