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Natural Betaine (not Cocamidopropyl Betaine)
Hi, all.
I see a number of posts in which the term betaine is used as shorthand for Cocamidopropyl Betaine/CAPB, but not too many regarding natural betaine (trimethylglycin). Does anyone have experience using this for hair care (either a shampoo or leave-in tonic/serum? I realize it’s classified as a humectant, but I think I saw somewhere that it improves “comb-ability”/functions as a detangled better than others? Thank you. -
5 Replies
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I use the good ‘betaine’ in all my moisturizers. However I am clueless when it comes to hair care. However….I have seen blurbs that mention betaine becomes cationic with lower pH’s. So, I suspect…if the pH were low enough…you would be correct.
Question is… would you formulate a shampoo at that pH to get the betaine to perform its trick? I think @Pharma has enough insight on betaine….to help.
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Wellll… @Pharma hasn’t reliable experience with hair care and betaine/TMG.Yes, at lower pH it becomes cationic and should act somewhat as conditioning agent (given that it’s highly hydrophilic, very small, and super water soluble isn’t helpful at all). On the up-side, it can be used to replace salt as thickening agent.I like it a lot in leave-on skin care products and don’t get the skin feel a conditioning agent would cause by them. This doesn’t mean it’s impossible that it’s helping with detangling and combing. -
Pharma said:Wellll…Yes, at lower pH it becomes cationic and should act somewhat as conditioning agentI like it a lot in leave-on skin care products
Ok…we have snared @Pharma into this conversation. Now I will spin it into a new direction for my own knowledge gain. I have long waited for a full extollation (yeah…made up that word) of betaine and its cationic possibilities. I am more interested in PROTECTING myself from this characteristic, than achieving it.
So, what I know so far:
1) This process begins to happen in the pH range starting with the number 4.
2) Anionic things don’t like to play with things called ‘cationic’.
So, my mentors (one might be Swiss with a lot of dogs
) have most of my formulas in the pH range of 4.8 and 4.2 (product dependent).So, the questions:
1) When betaine is exposed to a pH that flips the cationic switch….is this all at once… From one state, to another… or more of a gradual/graduated thing? Meaning the 4.8 pH formula contains a far lower cationic state, than the 4.2 pH formulas cationic state?
2) My Swiss mentor has typically recommended that I include a small amount of anionic emulsifier to fortify my emulsions. At what point (assume an inclusion rate of either 2 or 3% betaine in any formula) or is there a point… where the cationic conversion of betaine will antagonize the anionic GSC (assume one part to ten of emulsifier)?
Sitting back….waiting to bathe in the glow of your wisdom. All can participate!
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Betaine is an inner salt, one side is anionic and the other cationic. Like any acid (especially organic ones), their dissociation (turning from charge neutral to negative) depends on their pKa value and the solutions pH. The change is gradual and leads from an inner salt to a standard salt, not a ‘cationic’ the way you commonly think of. This means that betaine at lower pH behaves like an organic salt and charge antagonising effects are in the range of any other organic salt (= less pronounced than with table salt).
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Pharma said:Betaine is an inner salt, one side is anionic and the other cationic. Like any acid (especially organic ones), their dissociation (turning from charge neutral to negative) depends on their pKa value and the solutions pH. The change is gradual and leads from an inner salt to a standard salt, not a ‘cationic’ the way you commonly think of. This means that betaine at lower pH behaves like an organic salt and charge antagonising effects are in the range of any other organic salt (= less pronounced than with table salt).
Thank you. I can now sleep better at night!
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