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Innovation
Hello everyone.
Im starting my skincare line and after discussing with many of you i have learned a lot and those words cant exress my gratittue towards each and everyone of you. As a first time founder who is alone on this journey i faced many challenges and still do but i dont give up and im glad i found you here.
I want to ask something, i want to formuate a cleanser and the way i work because i am alone and im the only one making decision whence me being here constantly asking for advice and guidance/So i have been reading about product innovation; cleanser innovation etc/Do you guys think its okay to start with a decent product and then through survey and feedback improve and innovate or shall i be innovative from the very beginning? My friend tols me Ghita stop being a perfectionnist; start wiht what you have and improve. the marjet will tell you everything.Yet now i tel myself:
Im scared based on the conversations oil cleanser might not be popular in my location so do like the competion but again where would i be diffrent? Then i say Ghita stop stop; make smples of your cleanser and go test thats it!!! but my brand concept is not ready so shall i still test , cus when you test you speak to people and you should tell them your concept you dont just hand out a product and say: hello please test it!!!lol you explain what it is; what sets it apart and this is the part im not confident about/
So should we be innovative from the beginning or is it okay to not know everything and let the market teach us? WHat do you all do to be innovative or to offer innovative products? There is a brand called KOPARI, it seems t be a very successful brands yet their products are okay but i dont know what is it about them that makes them suvccessful and this is exactly what i want to be like/
This is Kopari -
27 Replies
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My opinion (not worth anything) is… the world is already full of mediocre products. There is no room for one more mediocre product. Make something better….no matter the time it takes.
The buyers willing to buy something ‘new’ (give you a chance)… will soon learn your products are not worth buying after one or two tries, if you are putting out average products. In the internet age….a bad review can hang with you for a decade.
Come out of the gate hot…unique and special. Otherwise you will be trampled by the herd.
That being said… Many brands succeed with average product….they just spend millions on marketing. And this is probably…the more effective route….vs letting awesome products….’grass roots’ themselves to the top.
Good Luck.
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i could not have said it better 🙂 .
Launching something really innovative and letting it settle in the market is very difficult for smaller new brands because if you start to be Successful in the market (if you can not patent what you are doing) a bigger company will come and copy what you are doing to satisfy their users need for your new product.
being innovative needs to be special in a way big Companys can not copy what you are doing either because you patented it or it is not manageable for a big structure to reproduce what you are doing( special ingredients only produced for you / Hand made Quantity and so on).
Otherwise, you will need Marketing and nowadays Influencers to target a special group of people that will identify with your brand and the idea you are selling. like https://koparibeauty.com/ is doing.
In My experience nowadays either be very expensive or be Totaly neutral clear label Cosmos etc to attract groups that are willing to buy new stuff and try it. either because the stuff they have is not very good or because you need always to have the newest trend.
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Hello Graillotion.Thank you for your reply/
Can we define here what is “mediocre”?Is it bad ingredients or a product that doesnt deliver results or is it a common product like we everyone else is doing? Kindly check the brand KOPARI can we say their products are mediocre? Yet they are successful and recently received funding from a big private equity/
https://koparibeauty.com/Can you please explain what is a mediocre product?
For me for instance for each product i do a thorough research; ask formilators; read articles; i want to BE different -
To me….mediocre….means just average. Not bad, but not a products that causes your jaw to drop when you try it.
If you buy 30 (commercial) products in the same segment, you will get about 5 that are just simply bad. The next 22-24….those are the average/mediocre. These are products that might have been stunning products at the concept phase, but by the time the costing chemist got done with them, they slid into mediocrity. Not saying they are bad…they function as advertised and are safe, but you as the consumer…do not run out of the house with the product held over your head, telling the neighbors about it. At the far end of the spectrum, there might be one or two products in the group, that clearly set themselves apart from the balance of the group. They perform better, smell better, and provide the best perception of value. These are the products that you insist your friends try.
Working in the structure of a large company where you do not make all the decisions, can often quell the tiny nuances that take you from average to exceptional, where cost and manufacturing ease are the rulers of the day. In those structures, maybe the emollient that would have made that slight difference (as example Dicaprylyl carbonate vs IPM), but your product was forced to use the product that was already in-house, vs adding a new SKU to the companies inventory. Or using a product that requires time (hydration) vs one that does not…for flow in production. There are so many interchangeable parts, that will eventually change the product, from formulation table ‘gold’ to production line mediocrity.
So nothing wrong with mediocre products, they just do not stand out beyond the aura the marketing market can create?
Aloha.
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Hello @Graillotion thanks for this detailed answer. However is a product still considered mediocre when it is infused with active ingredients that address particular skin concern?
In your own view what are exceptional skincare products and cna you give an example of an exceptional skincare product from one or two brands or more just to have an idea please?
Ah so you are saying that what can make a product mediocre is the fast that the manufacturer is using the ingredient that is already in-house instead of sourcing an ingredient that will make a difference and which is not availanble at the manufacturer, So the sourcing of the ingredient will make the difference , is that it?
So you qre saying that many factors make a product mediocre such as replacing an ingredent that is already available by an ingredient that should have been sourced or having a manufacturer that should take time for flow of production;So many factors like these make a product mediocre?
Ok so for my skincare products im putting three actives per product that are imported will this gurantee that my products are not mediocre;
Thank you for clarifying.
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While I share @Graillotion view that the world has enough mediocre products, from a formulation standpoint, I don’t think better than that is possible in the cosmetic industry. At least with the currently available raw materials.
Consumers are just not particularly good at noticing subtle differences in cosmetic formulas. You can take exactly the same formula and put the wrong fragrance in it & people will hate the product. But put in a fragrance they love and they’ll love the same formula.
Putting actives in a formula is not innovative. Anyone can do this & consumers can’t tell a difference anyway.
In my opinion the only innovation in the cosmetic industry is in the marketing stories. If you look at the most successful brands, they are simply compelling marketing stories backed up by decent formulas with appealing fragrances.
If you are going to spend time & effort on your skin care line, spend it on making the most compelling marketing story for your customers. Make a decent formula, pick a wonderful fragrance, good packaging & make it easy to buy your product. Working to create an innovative product formula is a waste of time, in my opinion.
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Innovation is cosmetic products is extraordinarily difficult to achieve and unless you have some unique, proprietary ingredient and/or combination of ingredients upon which you have patent protection is virtually impossible to achieve.
One of the few true cosmetic innovations I can think of is Vitamin C … Skinceuticals CE Ferulic combination, Ron Robinson’s Vitamin C silicon solution and the combination of L-Ascorbic Acid in Propanediol + Urea … all patented.
Make the best product you possibly can supported by effective marketing. The company KopariBeauty has products that I’m sure work good enough, there is nothing innovative about them, but they are supported by effective marketing and appropriate pricing and that is the key to their success.
If you want to be innovative in the cosmetics industry, the “next big thing” opportunities are going to be in vessicles to help cosmetic “active” ingredients to better penetrate the SC.
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Thank you so much @MarkBroussard and @Perry.You both said things i wanted to hear and understand and i literally just took a picture of this Perry so i can print it
If you are going to spend time & effort on your skin care line, spend it on making the most compelling marketing story for your customers. Make a decent formula, pick a wonderful fragrance, good packaging & make it easy to buy your product. Working to create an innovative product formula is a waste of time, in my opinion.
Now Perry can you please give me an example of a compelling marketing story.Fragrance wise i dont intend to put any fragrance cus i want everyone to use my products and sesntive skins dont react well to fragrance.
And you said Kopari is supported by effective marketing and appropriate pricing and that is the key to their success. Ill study their brand again.
Thank you both so miuch.Now i finally feel relieved cus i was reading countless articles on how to give somthing innovative, wasted months!!!@MarkBroussard im impressed so how do you know that vessicles are the next big thing? I mean how did you come up to this conclusion?
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You might consider the approach of the major guys - pay attention to the peripheral elements, as simple as they seem - an attractive package: easily manipulated, effective closure that does clog or leak, label that does fade or wash out, that doesn’t leave inaccessible residual product, staged well on shelf; a stable consistent product without phase or color change, syneresis, mold etc. : Support with convincing targeted ads.
The big guy’s cost structures demands extensive repeat purchase tro make money - so all the above and more must be consistent through time and geography as cost savings are pursued at all levels. A true technical innovation consumers can perceive would help a lot but those are very rare in cosmetics.
For example, P&G did not make money with Pringles until almost a decade after introduction. -
It’s pretty straightfoward: Innovation in cosmetics can come from new, novel ingredients that have a demonstrated effect, unique combinations of ingredients that have a demonstrated effect or technology to enhance the absorption/performance of existing ingredients. All require extensive research & development to achieve and are well beyond the resources of a typical cosmetic brand. Some of these innovations come from academia, some from companies, some from researchers tinkering, but if you are not a scientist working in the lab, well, your chances of coming up with something innovative are virtually non-existent.
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I think that innovation is possible within the current environment. But you must be prepared to stick your neck out. And be totally committed.I’m someone who has skin issues aggravated by synthetic surfactants and fragrances. And my partner has the same issues.Being a scientist, I worked for a couple of years identifying the variables behind these skin issues. And luckily we had access to Dr Bronner’s products where they saponify oils to produce various washes.We decided to go down the same path. I initially developed small Batch Manufacturing Records (BMRs) for a range of products. The challenge was developing the BMRs for the product bases using various plant oils. Once we had this under our belt, then essential oil fragrance blends that worked in these saponified bases.I then scaled up to batches producing a few hundred bottles. At the same time, I developed the capacity of artisans in Viet Nam and now Malaysia to do this work.Additionally, I was approached by a company in Africa producing Shea Butter. I developed their capacity to saponify their Shea Butter and produce a range of liquid products. They are now doing very well and are selling globally.So from where I sit, innovation is alive and well.You can check out our saponified products here: https://indochinenatural.com/And how it came about and our philosophy: https://indochinenatural.com/our-story/ -
Hello everyone
Thank you so much @PhilGeis, when i think innovation Fenty Skin by Rihana is always on my mind.She innovated by doing somehting others didnt do which is to offer a line of foundation for eevery skin tone; be it youhave fair skin or dark or in between everyone is served and yesterday i was looking at her FB page called Fenty A new Culture of skincare and this is to true; she brought a new culture if you will.I want to do something like that which wont have to cost the same but i want something that others didnt do. So how can i do that? This is innovation the product themseves are not infused wiht some impressive ingredients but its the story she created back by action and the action is that she took care of all skin tones.
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Hi @MarkBroussard thanks for your reply.Again kopari was founded by two girls with no science background yet the brand is flying.So how are they innovative or how are they successful?
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Hey @Perry i was reading again your answer and Fenty Skin by Rihana struck my mind/ She disrupted the market by coming up wiht a new “concept” which is to offer foundations for all skin shades.So whats innovative here is not the product or packaging but the IDEA that she is now backing up wiht action and the action is to OFFER A RANGE OF FOUNDATION FOR ALL SKIN TONES. So is this innovation of concept or brand story as you mention?
You said
In my opinion the only innovation in the cosmetic industry is in the marketing stories. If you look at the most successful brands, they are simply compelling marketing stories backed up by decent formulas with appealing fragrances.
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As I said before, there is nothing innovative about Kopari’s products … they are rather average in my opinion. They are just effective marketers with “good-enough” products at attractive price points. You don’t have to be innovative to be successful.
It all depends on how you define innovative or an innovation and don’t confuse innovative with creative. Rhianna’s products are not innovative per se, she just offered good products in a variety of shades that were not available on the market … she saw a gap in what consumers wanted and what products were available. That is not an innovation, it’s simply filling a unmet market demand.
In my lexicon, innovation in personal care products is some new ingredient or combination of ingredients that deliver a result that is better than other available ingredients/products. Or, a new product format … Liquid To Matte Lipsticks was a clever innovation.
You have an excellent example in OGX Beauty and it’s very successful line of Oil of Morocco hair care products. You have some native ingredients to Morocco … Argan Oil, Blue Tansy that you could incorporate into an oil cleanser.
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I gave the example of Kopari which is a skincarz brand founded by two girls from Hawai who discovered the virtue of coconut and wanted to launch their skincarz brand.As you can all see the products are okay; i havent tried them but i mean you feel there is no scientific effort behind the brand.Ech prodycts are infused wiht ingredients we are familair with YET the brand is successfdul , it sells at ULTA, SEPHORA. etc. The brand’s founders are not celebrity they are normal people like you and I but they knew how to make it BIG.
There is another brand that is successful called RANAVAT, founded by a girl from India;The brand retails ar Harrods in London; Sephora in the USA.
The hero product that propelled the brand to fame is the SAFFRON SERUM
https://www.ranavat.com/products/brightening-saffron-serumPersonally i find Ranavat more innovative ( correct me if im wrong) than Koparior ùaybe its just an impression that im having. mAYBE Ranavt is more innovative because she uses ingredient sourced from India and she knows the market there so she knows what to put in her products.What do you think? OR do you think its in her brand story?
What i noticed is that there were other brands but only few who developed a saffron face serum yet they didnt achieve the level of popularity Ranavat achieved.Why is that?
So there other saffron serum brands that are not as popular as Ranavathttps://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.shopify.com%2Fs%2Ffiles%2F1%2F0486%2F2715%2F5109%2Fproducts%2Fimage.png%3Fv%3D1651035223&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fdewdropskincare.co.za%2Fproducts%2Fbrightening-saffron-elixir-serum-available-on-pre-order&tbnid=g0LhZlUhpxORFM&vet=12ahUKEwihsqvQ5bL8AhV-gScCHbZuDgcQMygsegUIARC6Ag..i&docid=DKsT1bQ8JdqPmM&w=1080&h=1080&q=saffron%20serum&ved=2ahUKEwihsqvQ5bL8AhV-gScCHbZuDgcQMygsegUIARC6Ag
This brand DEWDROP also has a serum that is like Ranavat’s yet they are not as susccessful and i checked the ingredients they are almost the same! So why did Ranavat make it and dewdrop not as much?Also i want my priudtcs to feature only the necessry ingredeints i dont want to have 10 ingredients if only 5 are going to devliver results cus the other 5 are just there making the product expensive.So my idea is to keep things to a strict minimum to deliver results.
Check for instance Ranavat saffron serum, it has lots of ingredients and are they all necessary to deliver the result which is BRIGHTENING? -
Im reading an article that explains why Rihana Skin was a hit.
The article says that Rihana first listens then she posts and by that they mean that she has ability to pay attention to the conversations happening on the internet, learn from them and then create products or content people want to see. Within the online beauty community, she saw a desperate call to action for brands to expand their foundation color ranges, so she did exactly that. When Fenty Beauty launched, the company offered a range of 40 foundation shades, finally catering to those who were ignored by the beauty industry. This led to explosive reviews of Rihanna’s makeup line, all filled with relief and excitement from fans.then the articles adds:
What Rihanna realized is that social media isn’t just a platform for putting content out and receiving feedback; it’s a tool that should be used to understand what consumers are asking for. Practice social media research by following clients/customers back, reviewing their accounts, paying attention to what they’re posting and giving them what they want, not what you think they need
So my question is: where does she listen to those concervsation to know whats lacking in the market? I want to listen as well but where do i find those conservation happening or taking place?
Also when they say practice social media by following clients back, paying attention to what they’re posting and giving them what they want.How can i do this? Lets say one of you here is my client and you folow me on IG and i follow you back.How will i know once i follow you back what you are posting cus on IG you cant know this anymore, and reviewing their account means checking their post; how will this help if i check people’s posts? Can someone help me with that that i can hire it can be a junior so i dont pay them a lot a junior freelancer but what should i ask them to do?
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The first thing you have to realize is that no one really knows why Rihana’s line was a hit. Everything people write about it is looking backwards to what happened and trying to explain it. That doesn’t mean you could do exactly the same thing and have a successful line.
Rihana was not the first brand to launch 40 foundation shades. For example Make Up For Ever had that many before Rihana. Her brand just did a better job of marketing it. But the products aren’t really different.
Fenty is also not the first brand to listen to their consumer. Big companies have entire Consumer Marketing groups that specifically go out and do consumer research. They talk to people in their homes, do focus groups, monitor them online. Teams of individuals dedicated to brands doing all the same things Rihana was doing.
Her celebrity status gave her a unique marketing story that for whatever reason was successful. You can’t expect to repeat or explain her effect. It was probably just lucky timing.
You listen to the conversations by following people on Instagram. See what they are talking about. See what problems they have.
Go read this and follow their advice. https://www.mojomedialabs.com/blog/complete-guide-storybrand-framework
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Hey Perry thank you so much; But i still dont understand how following someone on IG tells me about them? Because i follow people on IG but when i enter their page to check their poctures i dont see anything; so lets say i follow you on IG how do i know from your post what you are talking about or what problems you have? Cus when you check people posts you see only a caption but you dont see aporblem.IG used to allow us to see what people are posting on other accounts not anymore so how do i find what problems the people im following have?
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Perry i love the Mojo framework and im going to apply it now/So can we say that the mojo is a brand story framework?
Also in the mojo they mention to incentivize people to work aith them they zqnt to show them WHAT FAILURE LOOKS LIKE IF YOU DONT MAKE A CHANGE.So can i use that framework as well for my products? Lets say that for the cleanser i use this entire framework; would that be good?So when you told me last week Perry that focus on a good brand story; packaging, good fragrance and you are good to go.When you said brand story you then referred to this mojo framework? So all brand stories should follow this framework? I always htought that a brand story goes something like: oh our ingredient is sourced from the depth of the ocean and after years of research we discovered that this ingredient has powerful effects on the skin etc.I thought that this is what brand story looks like but i believe that based on what you said brand stories mean: who is the hero/ what is their problem/how can we provide a solution/ etc
Am i right @Perry? -
@Perry so basically cosmetics doesnt have to be complicated! If you know your HERO (ideal customer) you can sell anything to them right? Lets say i dont have a product that has a wow effect on people but this product is for a specific type of people(hero) who has a specific problem;So my role is to FIND THAT HERO and sell the product to them right?
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Before you sign up for any service, perhaps getting a copy of this book and reading it is a better (less expensive) start. StoryBrand book It also lays out the framework that Mojo is claiming to help with.
I’m not a marketing person so I don’t have an expertise in having all the answers to marketing. But I’ve read a bunch on the topic and you pretty much nailed it.
1. Identify your ideal customer
2. Find out what problems they want solved.
3. Make & sell products that solve that problem.
4. RepeatThis formula works whether you’re selling cars, cookies or cosmetics. In theory, it should work for any product or service. You’re right, cosmetics doesn’t have to be complicated.
Pantene puts out a great shampoo but it’s not significantly better than something anyone else can make. They are successful because of their marketing.
Drunk Elephant https://www.drunkelephant.com/ doesn’t make products that are particularly innovative but their marketing story resonates with their hero customers.
As far as Instagram goes (or any social media). No one is necessarily going to TELL you their problems. You have to use information you see that the post, read what they say, and infer or guess at what you think their problems are.
I can imagine the development of Fenty by Rhianna probably went something like this.
Rhianna posted some glamour selfie then put something like “I luv this hat but I sure wish I could find makeup that worked better on my skin”
Then a large number of her fans responded and said “yeah, we can’t find good matching makeup either. Why doesn’t that exist?”
Then Rhianna says, yeah that should exist. Then she went out and made it.
You can only guess at what people’s problems are. But social media helps give you some clue.
When I want to make a new cosmetic formulation course, I read through this forum to see what problems people are having. That will help me know what product they might want.
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Thank you loads @Perry for your help.
So lets say im following 100 people on IG this means i have to go through every account and analyse 10000’s posts? -
I was reading an article on anti aging and how women many women are rejecting this now.
I read a sentence but im not sure i understand it:Beyond the fact that much anti-aging beautification is scientifically baseless
Does this mean that anti aging products scientifically speaking havent been proven to slow down the aging process? So when a cream or any product claims to be anti aging this has no scientifc backup, right? -
The part that scares me the most and the one i want to focus on is BUILDING A CUSTOMER CENTRIC skincarz brand.
An article im reading about Rihanna says that she owes her massive success to the fact that instead of just relying on her name to sell the brand, she focused on creating products that put the customer first and helped to increase diversity within the beauty business.
So to be customer centric we either have to do surveys or like perry said we should track what are people complaining about on social media that we could adress right?
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