Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating How to suspend dimethicone in SLES based shampoos?

  • How to suspend dimethicone in SLES based shampoos?

    Posted by gunther on February 19, 2019 at 8:40 pm

    The dimethicone suitable emulsifiers I know of (BTMS, behentrimonium, cetrimonium) are cationic, thus incompatible with the anionic SLES.

    This patent mentions using ethylene glycol stearates to suspend silicones
     More preferred are the ethylene glycol stearates, both mono and distearate, but particularly the distearate containing less than about 7% of the mono stearate.
    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5837661.html
    Can you use pearlizers to suspend dimethicone? This is new to me.

    Chi_n replied 4 years, 3 months ago 8 Members · 15 Replies
  • 15 Replies
  • gunther

    Member
    February 19, 2019 at 8:53 pm

    It also mentions using
    -stearic monoethanolamide, stearic diethanolamide, stearic monoisopropanolamide and stearic monoethanolamide stearate. 
    - N,N-dihydrocarbyl amido benzoic acid and soluble salts thereof (e.g., Na and K salts), particularly N,N-di(hydrogenated) C16, C18 and tallow amido benzoic acid species of this family, which are commercially available from Stepan Company
    -  stearyl dimethyl amine oxide
    -  xanthan gum at concentrations ranging from about 0.3% to about 3%, preferably from about 0.4% to about 1.2%, by weight

    What do you guys have tried?
    Thanks in advance.

  • belassi

    Member
    February 19, 2019 at 9:07 pm

    Why would you want to destroy the foaming capability by adding dimethicone?

  • Vnnil

    Member
    February 21, 2019 at 6:20 am
    Unless you have very specific reasons to develop an emulsifying system by yourself, I would recommend using the silicone emulsions already present on the market. Many can be incorporated in shampoos and are very easy to use.
    Also, take a look at polymers like Carbopol SF, which can aid in the stabilization of silicones in anionic surfactants systems.
  • ngarayeva001

    Member
    February 21, 2019 at 7:05 am

    Some surfactants are ‘stronger emulsifiers’ than others. For example olefin sulfonate has relatively good emulsification properties. But you will actually reduce foam. Is PEG-8 dimethicone an option?

  • gunther

    Member
    February 22, 2019 at 3:09 am

    Belassi said:

    Why would you want to destroy the foaming capability by adding dimethicone?

    Because of silicones adding lubricity, shine, a protectant hair coating.
    Many big brands use silicones so they can’t be that bad.

    Vnnil said:

    Unless you have very specific reasons to develop an emulsifying system by yourself, I would recommend using the silicone emulsions already present on the market. Many can be incorporated in shampoos and are very easy to use.
    Also, take a look at polymers like Carbopol SF, which can aid in the stabilization of silicones in anionic surfactants systems.

    Some surfactants are ‘stronger emulsifiers’ than others. For example olefin sulfonate has relatively good emulsification properties. But you will actually reduce foam. Is PEG-8 dimethicone an option?

    Right now I’m debating on placing a special order on a water soluble/dispersible silicone, vs a placing a special order on a silicone-specific emulsifier.

  • ngarayeva001

    Member
    February 22, 2019 at 9:38 am

    This is my preference probably, but I don’t like any oils in my surfactants. I often use watersoluble shea butter (I have two varieties) and PEG-8 Dimethicone. Regarding dimethicone and cyclomethicone, they make a great leave-in detangler at 20/80 proportion. Super simple and efficient product.

  • gunther

    Member
    February 23, 2019 at 2:20 am

    Lots of big brand shampoos use glycol distearate to suspend silicones.

    I have Euperlan PK771 pearlizer in the lab and it contains glycol distearate
    Sodium Laureth Sulfate (and) Glycol Distearate (and) Cocamide MEA (and) Laureth-10
    https://www.ulprospector.com/en/eu/PersonalCare/Detail/804/34189/Euperlan-PK-771-Benz
    I’ll do some experimenting to see if it actually helps suspend silicones (and add a pearlized look in the process).

    Herbal essences curvas peligrosas shampoo (made in Mexico)
    Aqua, Sodium laureth sulfate, Sodium lauryl sulfate, GLYCOL DISTEARATE, DIMETHICONE,  Sodium citrate, cocamide MEA, Sodium xylenesulfonate, cocamidopropylbetaine, parfum, citric acid, Sodium benzoate, guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chlorid, Sodium chloride, tetrasodium EDTA, hexyl cinnamal, butylphenyl methylpropional, zea mays silk extract, prunus serotina fruit extract, orchid extract, CI 42090, CI17200, methylchloroisothiazolinone, methylisothiazolinone.
    https://herbalessences.com.mx/es-mx/comprar/colecciones/curvas-peligrosas/herbal-essences-shampoo-para-pelo-curvas-peligrosas

    Sedal liso perfecto shampoo (also made in Mexico)
    Aqua, Sodium Laureth Sulfate, Sodium Chloride, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Glycerin, DIMETHICONOL, Parfum, GLYCOL DISTEARATE, Carbomer, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride, Cocamide Mea, Disodium Edta, Mica, Titanium Dioxide, Dmdm Hydantoin, Peg-45m, Paraffinum Liquidum, Arginine, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone, Benzyl Benzoate, Hexyl Cinnamal, Limonene, Linalool, Sodium Hydroxide, Citric Acid. 

  • gunther

    Member
    February 26, 2019 at 4:29 am

    Belassi said:

    Why would you want to destroy the foaming capability by adding dimethicone?

    You were totally right, this study shows that dimethicone reduces foam a lot lot.

    Silicones as conditioning agents in shampoo
    Kazuyiki Yahagi

    http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download;jsessionid=B1BB72C01A6C21C29D10EC5D08C4910A?doi=10.1.1.516.2089&rep=rep1&type=pdf
    This may explain why so many big brand shampoos add SLS to SLES, to boost foam lost by dimethicone.

  • ngarayeva001

    Member
    February 26, 2019 at 11:07 pm

    Silicones are known for this because they reduce surface tension. This is how they remove soaping in lotions. Watersoluble silicones do impact foam as well but much less.

  • chemicalmatt

    Member
    February 28, 2019 at 9:21 pm

    Don’t know about “suspension” of dimethicone, but the classic method of incorporating these into shampoo systems used for many decades is to employ a little sodium xylene sulfonate (40% is RM standard) along with a medium-high mw dimethicone, say 1000 - 10,000cst. Even better: add low mw polyquaternium-10 (JR-400) to the shampoo and your deposition will be 500% better. or, stop asking us and just read Des Goddard’s book. (How often do I have to tell people?) 

  • gunther

    Member
    February 28, 2019 at 10:27 pm

    Don’t know about “suspension” of dimethicone, but the classic method of incorporating these into shampoo systems used for many decades is to employ a little sodium xylene sulfonate (40% is RM standard) along with a medium-high mw dimethicone, say 1000 - 10,000cst. Even better: add low mw polyquaternium-10 (JR-400) to the shampoo and your deposition will be 500% better. or, stop asking us and just read Des Goddard’s book. (How often do I have to tell people?) 

    Thanks
    May I ask what Des Goddard book are you referring to?
    He seems to have written several books.

  • ngarayeva001

    Member
    March 1, 2019 at 6:45 am

    I don’t understand what is the problem with asking questions. Cosmetic formulation is a niche profession. There’s literally no information online. For someone with full time job for whom it’s a hobby it’s easier to ask a question instead of digging information in chemistry books. The absolute majority of them are outdated and not user friendly. Also when a hobbyist asks a question like ‘will tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate reduce viscosity of aristoflex?” Professionals of this forum start complaining that this question wastes their time and suggest ‘just go and try’. Sorry guys but one oz of the above mentioned active is $50 on lotioncrafter plus delivery plus customs fee. It’s easier to ask than wasting expensive material. I am not suggesting that experiments and research aren’t required but if you don’t like the question and believe that the person is lazy and doesn’t want to read don’t respond. This is what I do.

  • pepe

    Member
    March 1, 2019 at 2:56 pm

    You can introduce dimethicone just inside SLES itself and stir slowly. Then after you can add this mixture into the main vessel. The final viscosity is very important at least you need to get 5000-10000cp

  • bahey

    Member
    January 10, 2020 at 9:02 am

    Silicones are known for this because they reduce surface tension. This is how they remove soaping in lotions. Watersoluble silicones do impact foam as well but much less.

    But because it’s water washable , Doesn’t give the very smoothy oily feel while washing

  • Chi_n

    Member
    January 10, 2020 at 4:32 pm

    pepe said:

    You can introduce dimethicone just inside SLES itself and stir slowly. Then after you can add this mixture into the main vessel. The final viscosity is very important at least you need to get 5000-10000cp

    It’s 2-in-1 technology. The keys are the drop size of the Dimethicone obtained by shear stress and crystallization of GDS in the emulsion.

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