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Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating Help me break this commercial formulation down, no idea what is going on with it. 🤔 Stumped

  • Help me break this commercial formulation down, no idea what is going on with it. 🤔 Stumped

    Posted by emma1985 on May 26, 2021 at 3:16 am

    Okay here is the product by Korean brand Dr. Ceuracle.

    https://ohlolly.com/products/dr-ceuracle-vegan-kombucha-tea-essence

    It’s a biphase product, but it looks like one of the phases is emulsified. But if it is emulsified, how is it possible that the water phase (brown liquid) is not mixing with the emulsified phase, given that emulsifiers are present?

    Unless I’m totally misunderstanding and that phase is not emulsified, but it definitely looks emulsified and there are emulsifiers in the INCI.

    I’ve never seen anything like this and I’m dying to understand.

    Here is the ingredients list.

    Camellia Sinensis Leaf Water, Camellia Sinensis Leaf Extract, Saccharomyces Ferment Filtrate, Triethylhexanoin, Hydrogenated Poly (C16-14 Olefin,) Water, 1-2 Hexanediol, Methylpropanediol, Centella Asiatica Extract, Ficus Carica Fruit Extract, Theobroma Cacao Seed Extract, Shisandra Chinensis Fruit Extract, Ulmus Davidinia Root Extract, Amaranthus Caudatus Seed Extract,  Sodium Hyaluronate, Hydrogenated Lecithin, Trilaureth-4 Phosphate, Polyquaternium-51, Helianthus Annus Seed Oil Unsaponifiables, Butylene Glycol, Dextrin, Ceramide NP, Ethylhexylglycerin

    teeqa_norsham replied 8 months, 2 weeks ago 10 Members · 32 Replies
  • 32 Replies
  • Graillotion

    Member
    May 26, 2021 at 4:22 am

    I can not begin to help….

    But I am curious….directions say… Shake well before using…. Do you know what happens when you shake well….Does everything temporarily whiten/emulsify for a moment….like a salad dressing that has been shaken?  Or do they stay separate?  I am assuming…..they combine for a moment?

    Seems like over time….the ratios change, unless one is a very savant shaker.  :)

  • emma1985

    Member
    May 26, 2021 at 4:46 am

    I can not begin to help….

    But I am curious….directions say… Shake well before using…. Do you know what happens when you shake well….Does everything temporarily whiten/emulsify for a moment….like a salad dressing that has been shaken?  Or do they stay separate?  I am assuming…..they combine for a moment?

    Seems like over time….the ratios change, unless one is a very savant shaker.  :)

    Yes, that is exactly what happens. Temporary “emulsification” (if you can call it that.) Exactly like salad dressing. Here is a picture. Biphase products are a huge trend in Kbeauty right now. 

  • jemolian

    Member
    May 26, 2021 at 6:15 am

    I’d assume one of the ingredients, perhaps the emulsifiers or Lecithin make the lipid phase white. It’s still a biphase because there are no water phase stabilizer. See this lysofix ingredient for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHYA0jvfQs0

    I guess anything can be a trend nowadays since biphase toners has been there for ages. Even now “foaming” toners are a thing 

    🤷

  • Pattsi

    Member
    May 26, 2021 at 7:12 am

    It is what it is - a separated emulsion.
    Not really bi-phasic like makeup remover - it takes time to separate back to 2 layers.
    The ingredient that was left out is Marketinga Moneyeta. 

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    May 26, 2021 at 12:31 pm

    Pattsi said:

    It is what it is - a separated emulsion.
    Not really bi-phasic like makeup remover - it takes time to separate back to 2 layers.
    The ingredient that was left out is Marketinga Moneyeta. 

    Marketinga Moneyata!!!!!

  • emma1985

    Member
    May 26, 2021 at 12:47 pm

    Yes biphase products have been around, but now they are tReNdInG. 😉😉

  • Abdullah

    Entrepreneur
    May 27, 2021 at 12:23 pm

    It is unstable emulsion and creaming is happening. 

    leaf water as first ingredient and not stable emulsion. preservatives don’t work correctly in my experience in unstable emulsions. How much is the shelf life of this product? 

  • MarkBroussard

    Professional Chemist / Formulator
    May 29, 2021 at 10:10 am

    @emma1985

    Yes, this is a two-phase system, they are generally made with separate oil phases and water phase without an emulsifier so the phases separate quickly after shaking.  You simply fill the water phase and then layer the oil phase on top of it.  

    In this particular case, the oil phase does contain an emulsifier, but in a quantity sufficient enough to give the oil phase the white color and enough to form the “emulsion” when you shake the product, but not enough to hold the emulsion together to ensure that the phases separate fairly quickly so you still have the “eye candy” of two distinct layers when the product sits on the shelf.

    I’m working on a couple of these at the moment … the products are designed to form two distinctly separate layers for the visual effect and you shake immediately before use.

  • ngarayeva001

    Member
    June 1, 2021 at 11:28 pm

    Armani even has a foundation in this format! When poor formulation skill is a trend 😂

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    June 2, 2021 at 2:21 pm

    Abdullah said:

    It is unstable emulsion and creaming is happening. 

    leaf water as first ingredient and not stable emulsion. preservatives don’t work correctly in my experience in unstable emulsions. How much is the shelf life of this product? 

    Good point!  They should consider micro stability in context of each distinct phase and consumer use through frequent shaken suspensions and separations.

  • Bill_Toge

    Professional Chemist / Formulator
    June 2, 2021 at 6:28 pm
    although it’s relatively easy to formulate a biphasic product (less easy to fill), it takes more skill to have both phases revert back to their original forms, or something close to them once shaken; two products that do this are Dentyl pH mouthwash and a L’Oreal makeup remover
  • emma1985

    Member
    June 8, 2021 at 3:35 am

    Abdullah said:

    It is unstable emulsion and creaming is happening. 

    leaf water as first ingredient and not stable emulsion. preservatives don’t work correctly in my experience in unstable emulsions. How much is the shelf life of this product? 

    I’m working on a bi-phase serum right now, and I’m using a water soluble preservative in the water layer (Germall) and an oil soluble preservative in the oil layer (Phenonip.) I don’t know if that’s what they’re doing here as well, but that is a good question.

  • MarkBroussard

    Professional Chemist / Formulator
    June 8, 2021 at 11:05 am

    @emma1985

    Yes, that is a good approach … separately preserve each the water phase and the oil phase with preservatives with the appropriate solubility for each phase.

  • Abdullah

    Entrepreneur
    June 8, 2021 at 12:05 pm

    That is good as @MarkBroussard said. 

    In your serum one phase is water and water soluble ingredients. What is in another phase? 

  • PhilGeis

    Member
    June 8, 2021 at 1:06 pm

    emma - have you challenged phases separately and through cycles of shaking?
    Think you’re approach preserves the oil/water interface more so than the preserving the oil phase per se. 
    Don’t presume the product is biphasic by intent.  They may not have been able to establish stable emlusion.

  • ngarayeva001

    Member
    June 9, 2021 at 10:24 pm

    @emma1985 I made a couple of makeup removers in this format. What worked pretty well is using non polar oil (in my case I used D5 and isododecane in another formula) and add 1-1.5% of NaCl to the waterphase. My water phase was rather simple (preservative, some basic humectants, salt and dye). You probably can do something similar just keep oil phase low. In makeup removers it’s close to 50/50. I saw surfactants in some of those formulas but in my experience they might partially emulsify and you will end up with cloudy product. Also type of bottle you use matters. Some types of plastic ‘catch’ droplets and it doesn’t look nice

  • emma1985

    Member
    June 10, 2021 at 3:30 am

    Abdullah said:

    That is good as @MarkBroussard said. 

    In your serum one phase is water and water soluble ingredients. What is in another phase? 

    Hi! 

    The oil phase is using plant oils, Coco Caprylate Caprate, Phenonip and antioxidant (Rosemary Oleoresin.) I haven’t had any issues thus far of oil phase separation due to non-compatible polarity. 

    I haven’t done any kind of microbial testing yet because I only made my “final test” versions a week ago, but in 3 weeks I’m going to test for contamination using my microbial testing kits.

    I have done shaking cycles. Here are my observations.

    My first attempt at making this serum did not contain a preservative in the oil phase. I was always planning on using an oil phase preservative, just hadn’t decided which one yet, and I was just experimenting at this point. I did have Germall in the water phase.

    Throughout cycles of shaking, the oil phase became less and less transparent. I think because of drops of water being trapped in the oil phase, I’m not 100% sure but it seemed to get worse every time I shook the bottle.

    Here’s the interesting part. Since adding Phenonip to the oil phase, I haven’t had any loss of transparency through cycles of shaking.

    Not only did Phenonip not impact transparency itself, it also seems to make my oil phase brighter. I’m using some colorful oils to have a colorful oil phase layered on top of a clear water phase for visual effect. So for example one of my serums uses Sea Buckthorn Berry Oil.

    Before I added Phenonip to my serum, I tested a small amount of it in pure Apricot Kernel Oil. I swear that overnight, the color of the Apricot Kernel Oil became brighter, and I could verify that by looking at the preserved and unpreserved Apricot Kernel Oil side by side the next day.

    Any thoughts on what might explain the slight change in color?

    Thank you so much for your feedback!! 🙂

    Sorry Abdullah, I don’t know why I thought you had also asked Phil’s question.

  • emma1985

    Member
    June 10, 2021 at 3:33 am

    @emma1985

    Yes, that is a good approach … separately preserve each the water phase and the oil phase with preservatives with the appropriate solubility for each phase.

    Thank you so much. That makes me feel better about my approach. 🙂 

  • emma1985

    Member
    June 10, 2021 at 3:35 am

    PhilGeis said:

    emma - have you challenged phases separately and through cycles of shaking?
    Think you’re approach preserves the oil/water interface more so than the preserving the oil phase per se. 
    Don’t presume the product is biphasic by intent.  They may not have been able to establish stable emlusion.

    Abdullah said:
    That is good as @MarkBroussard said. 

    In your serum one phase is water and water soluble ingredients. What is in another phase? 

    Hi! 

    The oil phase is using plant oils, Coco Caprylate Caprate, Phenonip and antioxidant (Rosemary Oleoresin.) I haven’t had any issues thus far of oil phase separation due to non-compatible polarity. 

    I haven’t done any kind of microbial testing yet because I only made my “final test” versions a week ago, but in 3 weeks I’m going to test for contamination using my microbial testing kits.

    I have done shaking cycles. Here are my observations.

    My first attempt at making this serum did not contain a preservative in the oil phase. I was always planning on using an oil phase preservative, just hadn’t decided which one yet, and I was just experimenting at this point. I did have Germall in the water phase.

    Throughout cycles of shaking, the oil phase became less and less transparent. I think because of drops of water being trapped in the oil phase, I’m not 100% sure but it seemed to get worse every time I shook the bottle.

    Here’s the interesting part. Since adding Phenonip to the oil phase, I haven’t had any loss of transparency through cycles of shaking.

    Not only did Phenonip not impact transparency itself, it also seems to make my oil phase brighter. I’m using some colorful oils to have a colorful oil phase layered on top of a clear water phase for visual effect. So for example one of my serums uses Sea Buckthorn Berry Oil.

    Before I added Phenonip to my serum, I tested a small amount of it in pure Apricot Kernel Oil. I swear that overnight, the color of the Apricot Kernel Oil became brighter, and I could verify that by looking at the preserved and unpreserved Apricot Kernel Oil side by side the next day.

    Any thoughts on what might explain the slight change in color?

    Thank you so much for your feedback!! 🙂

    ETA: sorry about the messy responses.

  • emma1985

    Member
    June 10, 2021 at 3:42 am

    @emma1985 I made a couple of makeup removers in this format. What worked pretty well is using non polar oil (in my case I used D5 and isododecane in another formula) and add 1-1.5% of NaCl to the waterphase. My water phase was rather simple (preservative, some basic humectants, salt and dye). You probably can do something similar just keep oil phase low. In makeup removers it’s close to 50/50. I saw surfactants in some of those formulas but in my experience they might partially emulsify and you will end up with cloudy product. Also type of bottle you use matters. Some types of plastic ‘catch’ droplets and it doesn’t look nice

    Yes, my phase distribution is 50/50 but I’m willing to go down if I have to.

    I was inspired by this product, you can see the phase distribution is closer to 80/20.

    I’m not using surfactants as it’s a leave on product.

    Thank you so much for the feedback!!

    https://ohlolly.com/products/sioris-time-is-running-out-mist

  • emma1985

    Member
    June 10, 2021 at 5:10 am

    @emma1985 I made a couple of makeup removers in this format. What worked pretty well is using non polar oil (in my case I used D5 and isododecane in another formula) and add 1-1.5% of NaCl to the waterphase. My water phase was rather simple (preservative, some basic humectants, salt and dye). You probably can do something similar just keep oil phase low. In makeup removers it’s close to 50/50. I saw surfactants in some of those formulas but in my experience they might partially emulsify and you will end up with cloudy product. Also type of bottle you use matters. Some types of plastic ‘catch’ droplets and it doesn’t look nice

    Did you include a preservative in your oil phase?

  • Abdullah

    Entrepreneur
    June 10, 2021 at 2:19 pm

    You can add NACL to o/w emulsion and make it unstable and call it bi phase. Or don’t use any emulsifier and call it bi phase.

    What i want to know is that are you making bi phase Product in expense of the quality because it is a trend or it has any benefit too that stable emulsion doesn’t have? 

    I have made several bi phase Products in my practices not by intention but because i wasn’t able to stabilize the emulsions as @PhilGeis said. And in my experience the composition of ingredients will be different at the beginnings and ends of the bottle and you can feel it. At beginning what you are using will have more of the oil phase ingredients and at the end it will have more of water phase ingredients.

  • emma1985

    Member
    June 10, 2021 at 3:20 pm

    Abdullah said:

    You can add NACL to o/w emulsion and make it unstable and call it bi phase. Or don’t use any emulsifier and call it bi phase.

    What i want to know is that are you making bi phase Product in expense of the quality because it is a trend or it has any benefit too that stable emulsion doesn’t have? 

    I have made several bi phase Products in my practices not by intention but because i wasn’t able to stabilize the emulsions as @PhilGeis said. And in my experience the composition of ingredients will be different at the beginnings and ends of the bottle and you can feel it. At beginning what you are using will have more of the oil phase ingredients and at the end it will have more of water phase ingredients.

    I am making it because I have used bi-phase leave on products and really liked them, and conceptually it’s in line with the rest of my skincare line (focus on plant oils, various humectants and extracts.)

    I know that the ratio can change over time, which is one of the reasons I went with 50/50 distribution. Even if uneven dispensing occurs, it will likely not move the distribution much further from 40/60 or 60/40, based on my tests.

    Plus, the product is packaged in a dropper bottle, which means that even if the user doesn’t shake the bottle at all, they will still end up with a relatively even distribution of oil and water. I have tested this using both of the different dropper bottle designs I have (one round, narrow, one rectangular, wider.)

    Experientially, the dropper bottle is different from the pour/spray bottle like the ones I linked.

    Using a bi-phase product is completely different from using an emulsion in terms of the user experience. And also, I’m guessing, different from using a separated emulsion. It’s like a mixture between using a serum and a facial oil.

  • emma1985

    Member
    June 10, 2021 at 3:28 pm

    Abdullah said:

    You can add NACL to o/w emulsion and make it unstable and call it bi phase. Or don’t use any emulsifier and call it bi phase.

    What i want to know is that are you making bi phase Product in expense of the quality because it is a trend or it has any benefit too that stable emulsion doesn’t have? 

    I have made several bi phase Products in my practices not by intention but because i wasn’t able to stabilize the emulsions as @PhilGeis said. And in my experience the composition of ingredients will be different at the beginnings and ends of the bottle and you can feel it. At beginning what you are using will have more of the oil phase ingredients and at the end it will have more of water phase ingredients.

    I’m not sure what you mean by in expense of quality. This product is an intentionally bi-phase product using high quality ingredients. It’s not a failed emulsion. There is no emulsifier.

  • MarkBroussard

    Professional Chemist / Formulator
    June 10, 2021 at 5:13 pm

    That’s a novel approach … a failed emulsion is a bi phase success!

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