Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating Help Evaluating This Formula Please.

  • Help Evaluating This Formula Please.

    Posted by Jini on March 27, 2017 at 1:22 pm

    Hello everyone!

    I would appreciate your help on determine the emulsifying system in this formula. I do know Sorbitol Esters are used in the preparation of emulsions but is it a complete emulsifier? And that Caprylyl Glycol are a humectant and skin conditioning agent. But there seems to bee a lot of oil content in this formula for it to not be properly emulsified. Am I missing something?

    Deionized Water, (Shea Butter)*, (Coconut ) Oil*, Macadamia  Seed Oil, (Mango) Seed Butter*, (Avacado) Oil, Vegetable Glycerin, Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Extract, Silk Protein, Ammonium Salt, (Neem) Seed (Carrot) Seed oil, Sorbitol Esters, Panthenol (Pro-Vitamin B-5), Caprylyl Glycol, Essential Oil Blend, (honeysuckle) Flower (and) Lonicera Japonica (Japanese Honeysuckle) Flower Extract,  (Vitamin E), Hibiscus Flower Extract

    Thanks in advance!

    Jini replied 7 years, 2 months ago 8 Members · 20 Replies
  • 20 Replies
  • johnb

    Member
    March 27, 2017 at 2:53 pm

    That is not a “legal” INCI declaration. Where is this product sold?

    There appears to be too small a quantity of “sorbitol esters” even if that includes sorbitol ester ethoxylates (polysorbates) and there is no other emulsfier declared, as you indicate.

    The caprylyl glycol is most likely included as a preservative but it is not very effective on its own.
     

  • Bill_Toge

    Member
    March 27, 2017 at 3:13 pm

    I recall someone discussing a very similar product (complete with an improperly declared INCI list) on here a few months ago; if it’s like that product, “Ammonium Salt” could mean behentrimonium or cetrimonium chloride, which would act as an emulsifier

  • DRBOB@VERDIENT.BIZ

    Member
    March 27, 2017 at 3:44 pm

    Sorbitol esters is not an INCI name and as written in formula does not define HLB for emulsion:which is also low in listing.Needs a nonionic polymer emusifier because (as above Bill Toge comment) ammonium salt could mean cationic emulsifier.Respectfully the formula is not well described or designed.But if you have to fix it use combination of Xanthan gum and Slerotium gum as stabilizer.

  • Jini

    Member
    March 27, 2017 at 3:51 pm

    Thanks for the validation Johnb. This would be the proper list, sorry I eliminated that so it wouldn’t be as long :

    Deionized Water, Butyrospermum Parkii (Shea Butter)*, Cocos Nucifera (Coconut ) Oil*, Macadamia Ternifolia Seed Oil, Magnifera Indica (Mango) Seed Butter*, Persea Gratissima (Avacado) Oil, Vegetable Glycerin, Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Extract, Silk Protein, Ammonium Salt, Melia Azadiratcha (Neem) Seed Oil,Daucus Carota Sativa (Carrot) Seed oil, Sorbitol Esters, Panthenol (Pro-Vitamin B-5), Caprylyl Glycol, Essential Oil Blend, Lonicera Caprifolium (honeysuckle) Flower (and) Lonicera Japonica (Japanese Honeysuckle) Flower Extract, Tocopherol (Vitamin E), Hibiscus Flower Extract

    But steal is kind of shady.

    This is another of there products.  

    Water, Cocos Nucifera (Coconut) Fruit Juice, Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Juice, Butyrospermum Parkii (Shea) Butter*, Stearyl Alcohol, Cetyl Alcohol, Behentrimonium Chloride, Glyceryl Caprylate, Panthenol, Fragrance (Essential Oil Blend), Litchi Chinensis (Lychee) Fruit Extract, Hylocereus Undatus (Dragon) Fruit Extract, Pyrus Malus (Apple) Fruit Extract, Garcinia Livingstonei (African Mangosteen) Seed Oil, Prunus Amygdalus Dulcis (Sweet Almond) Oil, Hydrolyzed Rice Protein, Glycerin, Psidium Guajava Fruit Extract, Citrus Grandis (Grapefruit) Fruit Extract, Hydroxyethylcellulose, Capric/Caprylic Triglycerides, Tocopherol, Sodium Benzoate, Myrciaria Dubia Fruit Extract, Cetrimonium Chloride, Glyceryl Undecylenate.

    I do however see Stearyl Alcohol, Cetyl Alcohol, Behentrimonium Chloride. But as far as I know Behentrimonium Methosulfate (and) Cetearyl Alcohol is a complete emulsifier as well as Behentrimonium Methosulfate (and) Cetyl Alcohol (and) Butylene Glycol, unless they are listing the ingredients it separately.

  • Jini

    Member
    March 27, 2017 at 5:16 pm

    Thanks @bill_toge.

    @drbob@verdient.biz Thak you as well for the information! It is not my formula its a product from a line called Shea Moisture but I have a hard time finding there emulsifier in almost all of there product. So I wanted to double check if I was missing something.  

  • OldPerry

    Member
    March 27, 2017 at 5:28 pm

    This company doesn’t have a legal list of ingredients so the truth is they could be using some polymeric emulsifier and just not listing it.

  • Jini

    Member
    March 27, 2017 at 5:46 pm

    That’s an interesting point Perry.

    By legal you mean an INCI name? Because I did list the Ingredients with the proper inci name from there website on one of my comments. What makes be brainstorm is not been able to determine what emulsifying system they use, and this happens with I believe every product of them I have encountered with exception of there shampoos.

  • OldPerry

    Member
    March 27, 2017 at 6:51 pm

    “vegetable glycerin”,  “Ammonium salt”, and  “deionized water” are not INCI names.  The company seems to be making an attempt to do a proper ingredient list but they are failing. So, if you can’t figure out the emulsion system, it’s just as likely that they are using something and not listing it.

    But in looking at the product, in my opinion here are the ingredients that matter (assuming they are at least following the labeling rules for concentration).

    Deionized Water, (Shea Butter)*, (Coconut ) Oil*, Macadamia  Seed Oil, (Mango) Seed Butter*, (Avacado) Oil, Vegetable Glycerin, Ammonium Salt

    Whatever the ammonium salt is, that could be the emulsifier. Coupled with the Shea butter that might be stable.  That would be my guess, I don’t really know though.
      

  • David

    Member
    March 27, 2017 at 7:43 pm

    The first/second list makes no sense at all… Silk Protein,Sorbitol Esters, Essential Oil Blend -also no INCI.
    The other list looks like some chemist had a closer look and corrected the first list.

  • Jini

    Member
    March 27, 2017 at 8:30 pm

    Thanks to everyone for your insight!

  • johnb

    Member
    March 28, 2017 at 7:18 am

    Do these products originate in China?

    After some experience several years ago with cosmetics manufacturers in China, Taiwan, Hong Kong I came to realise that they have their own interpretation of INCI and of western labelling requirements - most of it rubbish.

    Try as I did, I could not get these suppliers to comply with my requests for correct LOIs and in the end had to ditch them and move to more local manufacturers (at considerable cost).

    A prize excuse that these Chinois companies made was that their products were made according to a “secret Chinese patent”. This is totally stupid and demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the word “patent”.

  • Bill_Toge

    Member
    March 28, 2017 at 8:02 am
    @johnb they also have a habit of missing out key ingredients, or declaring a list of ingredients which doesn’t remotely match the actual product

    before I became more cynical and stopped taking ingredient lists as read, I spent quite a few frustrated hours trying and failing to replicate Chinese-made products!

  • Jini

    Member
    March 29, 2017 at 5:51 am

    Wow is that even legal? No wonder there are so many products dupes being ceeated overthere that are causing allergies to some consumers and they cant even pin point what it is.

  • Bill_Toge

    Member
    March 29, 2017 at 7:04 am

    @Jini it’s not legal at all - it’s their ‘clever’ approach to western regulatory requirements

    besides a complete INCI list, any product sold in Europe needs to be registered on the Cosmetic Product Notification Portal, which both serves as a monitor for the market and acts as an international poisons centre; among the information required is the composition of the product, whether this is in exact percentages or in bands, and Chinese manufacturers are generally loath to provide this

    so to keep the formula secret while paying lip service to the law, they often miss out key ingredients (e.g. the resin, in styling products), mislabel advanced materials as something simpler, or provide the list for a similar but unrelated product

    unfortunately, they get away with it because most people other than chemists with practical experience are unlikely to spot the fiddle - most of the staff in national enforcement authorities don’t have that background, so they wouldn’t have a clue there was anything wrong

    I’ve known some unethical UK manufacturers to do this as well, in order to tie the customers to their factory and prevent their rivals from reproducing the formula; again, this is wholly illegal

  • johnb

    Member
    March 29, 2017 at 7:34 am

    This deliberate misinterpretation by far eastern manufacturers extends much further than cosmetic products.

    A prticularly obscure one I was involved in was the presence of lead in candles. The lead was found on analysis of wax residues after burning. The manufacturers denied that lead was used in their product so it was left to me to find the source. I did find it by physically dismantling the candles and seeing that there was a metal wire running the length of the wick. This wire was made from a lead alloy. The idea was that the wire stiffened the wick so that the candle flame was controlled in height and volume. As the candle burned, more of the wick became exposed to the flame resulting in an increase in temperature of that part and fusion of the metal insert thus allowing the burning wick to maintain a constant length.

  • MarkBroussard

    Member
    March 29, 2017 at 8:52 am

    I have several close friends from China, so I have some insight into how they think … and, fundamentally, they simply don’t care about regulations.  Make it as cheap as possible and put whatever you can get away with on the label to pass muster to get to market.

    I once had a client who “had this great supplier in China” where she was purchasing raw ingredients … she gave me samples to work with … I don’t know what was in those sample jars, but it certainly was not what was claimed and you simply could not formulate with the samples.

    There is good reason that I never, ever buy ingredients from Chinese suppliers.

  • Jini

    Member
    March 30, 2017 at 1:24 am

    That is unbelievable. I always kind of new of this issue or at least had a feeling sense I am a makeup artist as well and custermers sometimes brag about buying some “orginal” makeup products thru ebay, wish or aliexpres for far less of what they cost. I always tried to explaind that they were fake or a missleading products but what can you do when people makeup there mind. 

    Thanks for sharing your intel and experiencia on the topic gentleman.

  • belassi

    Member
    March 30, 2017 at 5:03 am

    Well I hate to be a contrary view, but I have bought colour cosmetics (box that opens up with three drawers of shadow, liner, brushes etc) from China and they were excellent, and very nicely presented.

  • johnb

    Member
    March 30, 2017 at 7:07 am

    Belassi - the products may well have looked very good but did you investigate anything about their formulation? All may not have been what it seemed.

    Did you enquire as to the origin of the fibres in the brushes? I have heard all sorts on unpleasant stories about that.

    Have you enquired about the working conditions of the workers involved in manufacture?

  • Jini

    Member
    April 2, 2017 at 12:45 am

    There are some “good” makeup products meaning they work well for what you bought them for, dont know about the ingredients though. 

    But my main issue with these websites is that they are selling counterfeit products and marketing them as originals. Some people buy them knowing this information some just think there getting a great deal.

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