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Hair cond - any advice
Hi. I am trying to make a natural as can be hair conditioner and have the following recipe. Can you let me know if you can see any ‘problems’ or anything missing?
Also, would adding Guar gum add anything extra?Conditioning Emulsifier (BEHENTRIMONIUM
METHOSULFATE) Filtered Water, Geogard Ultra, Hydrolysed Oats, DL Panthenol
( Pro-Vitamin
B5), Lemon Myrtle Essential Oil -
18 Replies
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Why are you trying to make a “natural as can be” conditioner?
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The answer really depends on a few things.
1. What do you consider natural? There is nothing natural about Behentrimonium Methosulfate. And while Geogard Ultra is approved under the Ecocert standards the Sodium Benzoate is strictly produced via synthetic chemistry.
2. What do you want the conditioner to do? How is the hair supposed to feel? What is your benchmark you are trying to meet?
Panthenol won’t do much that would be noticeable to consumers. Hydrolysed oats probably won’t either as they are water soluble and will just rinse away.
Based on the ingredient list you provided this formula won’t have much conditioning.
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I want to offer people who use shampoo bars (high ph) to use a conditioner that will put the hair follicles down again. By ‘natural as possible’ I am talking about toxicity and have used http://www.ewg.org/skindeep/ingredient/700658/BEHENTRIMONIUM_METHOSULFATE/
to give me a rate on ingredient toxicity.
Can you suggest any addition that would leave the hair soft and smooth that would have a low toxicity? -
Good lord, an EWG reference.
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Hi maddies,
As someone who went through the period of ‘crafting’ in his path to become a formulator, I hope I can be the right person to give you information.
You seem like you mean well and you’re also making logical conclusions, which is great. You know that high pH of a soap bar is unsuitable for hair and you try to counteract this. This is a good attitude.
However, it is all faux-science….
Why would you serve someone’s hair with the wrong product in the first place? Hair products are meant to have low pH, precisely to avoid the problem.As to you conditioner. If counteracting the high pH is your main goal, then low pH is your answer. Citric acid?
Better still if you start taking steps towards creating a correct shampoo product. You are already working with a water based product that requires preservatives. In that instance you seem to be ready to step away from anhydrous shampoo and make a proper one. (this discussion board holds an enourmous amount of info on shampoo formulation)
P.S. EWG is cancer on the world of cosmetic chemistry.
It’s an affiliate marketing website styled up as a scientific authority. You may be forced one day to formulate a product congruent with it’s message but that for marketing purposes. As a person learning chemistry you must avoid it at all cost.
Replace it with: CIR , SCCS , IFRA + your national regulator.P.P.S. For basic formulating instructions (includes posts covering the topics you’re working on now) -> search: Swift Crafty Monkey
And on a final personal note. Even in my soap making days I refused to create any shampoo bars precisely because I would not ignore the issues listed above. This could be the reason why I am where I am today.
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Behentromonium Methosulfate is derived from Rapeseed. It is allowed under many of the Natural standards.
Funny enough, even EWG gives it a “one”, nearly their lowest level of “toxicity.” I would avoid even using the term “toxic” as any ingredient (even one as innocuous as water) can show toxicity if the dose is high enough. Toxicity is a broad term and is generally more dependent upon dose than the material.
Lastly, just because it is “natural” doesn’t mean it is safer. Comply with a Natural standard but remember that “natural: is only one factor in being successful. You must meet a certain price point as determined by your market and it must perform.
Don’t try to make a “natural as can be” product at the detriment of price and performance. That is marketing, not formulating. -
At last, some very helpful, non judgemental advice. THANK YOU so very much, I really appreciate those who have taken the time to lay out the issues both pro and con in a helpful way.
Are there any formulators based in Australia here? Would like to talk about the possibility of formulating according to Aust standards. -
Thinking of adding some Guar Conditioner and if I wanted to add some coconut oil for ‘conditioning’ would it need to be fractionated coconut oil?
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Guar would provide some conditioning. It is more frequently used in cleansing formulas but I’ve seen it in conditioners. For coconut oil, I doubt you would notice much difference in the type of coconut oil you use.
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@maddies There are a couple of formulators on this forum that are from Australia (myself included).
Here are some websites that might be of interest in learning about how cosmetics are regulated in Australia.https://www.nicnas.gov.au/chemical-information/cosmetics-and-soaps
https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2008C00244
https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2013C00556
http://www.productsafety.gov.au/content/index.phtml/tag/ingredientslabellingAlso check out http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com.au/ for some great information on formulating conditioners.
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Thank you Perry and ozgirl!
Ozgirl, do you send your formulas to any labs in Aust for testing? Have you used Geogard Ultra in conditioner before as a preservative? If so, at what percentage?
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I have followed Swiftcraftymonkey for quite a while and admire her fearless approach to making cosmetics. Although she does do a great deal of research and does her best to formulate she is still a hobbyist and not a cosmetic chemist (and neither am I!) so take that into consideration when you read her blog. I have seen some great stuff on her site but also a few attempts that, although may work very well, are not aesthetically pleasing. However, I do encourage you to go to her blog but keep in mind what I am said.
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@maddies We do all of our physical stability testing ourselves but there are labs out there that can do this for you. I am not sure what your situation is (homecrafter, small business etc?) but maybe check out New Directions as they offer these services.
I have not tried Geogard Ultra in a conditioner so unfortunately I cannot offer any advice on usage levels.
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@BartJ is there any reason you would conclude “You know that high pH of a soap bar is unsuitable for hair” ?
We have been producing various recipes of liquid soap for a few years under our own label and for OEM customers that we call a “shampoo,” and it is popular with consumers. The pH of these products ranges from 9.5 to 10.0.
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@mikethair at that pH, your customers could also use it to get their dishes sparkling clean
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soap, which is also an anionic detergent, in contact with water, leaves an alkaline residue that is very harmful to the hair and skin and that precipitates in the form of calcium salts which accumulate in the hair strands, leaving them opaque and tangled
You should never use alkaline products on the hair. -
@Belassi …..not sure where your quote has come from, but has not been our experience. Most people rinse their thoroughly after shampooing, and none of our customers (our production capacity is 10,000 x 250 mL bottles/month) have reported calcium salt precipitates plus opaque/tangled hair.
If the customer demand wasn’t there, we wouldn’t produce this shampoo, its that simple. Generally we are on the back foot trying to keep up with demand. One point though, this shampoo does not suit all hair types, but that proably applies to any shampoo.
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@Bill_Toge ……nice marketing angle…..could sell this shampoo as a top-to-toe and do your dishes at the same time.
I see you do hair products……we sell a lot of this shampoo to a hair salon in Singapore who claim it is one of the best they have come across. Will ask them if they have tried it on their dishes in the lunch room or cafe next door.
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