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Formulation help: Best emulsifiers to pair up
Hello All,
thank you in advance for your help. My formula for a facial cream had 3 emulsifiers in it ( Emulgin SG 1%, Liposorb 1%, and Olivem 1000 6%). I found the Olivem 1000 to be too soapy after trial and error. And the Liposorb (sorbitan stearate) is really expensive. I have 0.4% xanthan gum and 3% glycerin. I now purchased 5 new emulsifiers to try:
Montanov 202 Arachidyl
Alcohol, Behenyl Alcohol, Arachidyl GlucosideMontanov 68 Cetearyl
Alcohol (and) Cetearyl GlucosidePolymulse Acrylates/C10-30
Alkyl Acrylate CrosspolymerNaturemuls Candelilla/Jojoba/Rice
Bran Polyglyceryl-3 Esters, Glyceryl Stearate, Cetearyl Alcohol, Sodium
Stearoyl LactylateEcomulse Glyceryl
Stearate (and) Cetearyl Alcohol (and) Sodium Stearoyl LactylateWhich emulsifiers (2-3) would you pair together in formula?
Thank you again 🙂
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99 Replies
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Well….a tough question to answer…because choice of emulsifier totally changes the dynamics of the cream…. Mont 202 will make something lite like angel feathers (something you’ll never get to feel with Emuligin in there)…Mont 68…something very rich feeling. Both of which will need an anionic to keep them stable (Emuligin or GSC). The anionic you chose…will make the cream heavy and dense. GSC will keep it much lighter.
The last two on your list…both contain Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate, a minor surfactant…. which I have found adds to soaping vs helping to eliminate it. Considering you started with the worst soaper in the biz… anything you will use…will seem like an improvement. The last two are essentially the same…Just one has a fancier INCI.
Why is the 165 series emulsifier not on your list?
Polymulse..again a completely different animal…and unless you are looking more towards a gel cream….I would consider this a ‘co’ product, and much less a primary.
If you are a beginner….the Montanov series can provide a lot of challenges.
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Graillotion said:Well….a tough question to answer…because choice of emulsifier totally changes the dynamics of the cream…. Mont 202 will make something lite like angel feathers (something you’ll never get to feel with Emuligin in there)…Mont 68…something very rich feeling. Both of which will need an anionic to keep them stable (Emuligin or GSC). The anionic you chose…will make the cream heavy and dense. GSC will keep it much lighter.The last two on your list…both contain Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate, a minor surfactant…. which I have found adds to soaping vs helping to eliminate it. Considering you started with the worst soaper in the biz… anything you will use…will seem like an improvement. The last two are essentially the same…Just one has a fancier INCI.
Why is the 165 series emulsifier not on your list?
Polymulse..again a completely different animal…and unless you are looking more towards a gel cream….I would consider this a ‘co’ product, and much less a primary.
If you are a beginner….the Montanov series can provide a lot of challenges.
Thank you so much! I am a beginner. I have never heard of the 165 series emulsifier. I will research that. You have given me so much info so far.
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165….sorry…. Everyone uses it…from beginners to consummate pro’s. One of the best general purpose emulsifiers on the market. It does not add much thickness….so that is done with other additives.
I always just refer to it as 165….because everyone sells it under a different name….but the 165 is always constant
TEGO Care 165 - Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG-100 Stearate (formulatorsampleshop.com)
INCI: Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG 100 Stearate
You can create many products with this, just making tweaks as needed….from thin lotions…to thick creams. -
Graillotion said:165….sorry…. Everyone uses it…from beginners to consummate pro’s. One of the best general purpose emulsifiers on the market. It does not add much thickness….so that is done with other additives.
I always just refer to it as 165….because everyone sells it under a different name….but the 165 is always constant
TEGO Care 165 - Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG-100 Stearate (formulatorsampleshop.com)
INCI: Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG 100 Stearate
You can create many products with this, just making tweaks as needed….from thin lotions…to thick creams.
Hello, one site said to add cetearyl alcohol to thicken. Could i pair 165 with emulgin or another emulsifier on my list to make it more stable with a formula that has alot of extracts? What percentage would you recommend as one site states 2 to 10%. Thank you!
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elirit said:Graillotion said:165….sorry…. Everyone uses it…from beginners to consummate pro’s. One of the best general purpose emulsifiers on the market. It does not add much thickness….so that is done with other additives.
I always just refer to it as 165….because everyone sells it under a different name….but the 165 is always constant
TEGO Care 165 - Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG-100 Stearate (formulatorsampleshop.com)
INCI: Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG 100 Stearate
You can create many products with this, just making tweaks as needed….from thin lotions…to thick creams.
Hello, one site said to add cetearyl alcohol to thicken. Could i pair 165 with emulgin to make it more stable with a formula that has alot of extracts? Thank you
165 is hands down the best emulsifier….if you use extracts.
All of the alcohols have different feels…so buy small samples of several…and experiment.
Cetyl is one of the most common.
If you want to make world class textured creams….just read all the comments on this site written by ngarayeva001
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Graillotion said:elirit said:Graillotion said:165….sorry…. Everyone uses it…from beginners to consummate pro’s. One of the best general purpose emulsifiers on the market. It does not add much thickness….so that is done with other additives.
I always just refer to it as 165….because everyone sells it under a different name….but the 165 is always constant
TEGO Care 165 - Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG-100 Stearate (formulatorsampleshop.com)
INCI: Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG 100 Stearate
You can create many products with this, just making tweaks as needed….from thin lotions…to thick creams.
Hello, one site said to add cetearyl alcohol to thicken. Could i pair 165 with emulgin to make it more stable with a formula that has alot of extracts? Thank you
165 is hands down the best emulsifier….if you use extracts.
All of the alcohols have different feels…so buy small samples of several…and experiment.
Cetyl is one of the most common.
If you want to make world class textured creams….just read all the comments on this site written by ngarayeva001
Could i pair 165 with emulgin or another emulsifier on my list to make it more stable? Would PEG 100 be ok to market towards the consumers who prefer “natural”. I remember reading something about pegs and consumer perception. Thank you for answering my questions. I have also read a lot of ngarAyeva001 comments
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Yes, there could be a small subset of consumers that have the perception that PEG is bad. You will always find a group of misguided consumers that will balk at every possible ingredient you might include. I would balk at the fact you had extracts in your product, which I would consider ‘bug food’. So you can not please everyone, and in the end you need to make the most stable product you can….which would be 165 based.
Yes you can pair it with Emuligin, if you can bear the sensories.
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Yes you are right regarding pleasing everyone. Lol @bug food. I think I will try the 165 without emulgin at a higher percentage and see how it goes. I think I just got nervous because I see a lot of formulas on markst with 3 different emulsifiers. Thank you:)
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Yes…even the best (165) should have a co….
GSC / Emuligin
If your pH is low enough you can use
Varisoft EQ 65
Some polymerics can be used as long as you keep electrolytes low.
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And yes…my cream has 3.
Mont 202
GSC
Arisoflex + Carbomer -
You are a wealth if knowledge and I cannot thank you enough!
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The soaping depends on a few factors though. If you have too much emulsifiers with too little lipid content to match, too much gums, etc. Perhaps it’s best to reduce the Olivem 1000 to a lower percentage, but it depends on the percentage of oils that you have.
You can try a basic structure of the following and see if you like it:
- ~10% oils / esters / lipids
- 3% Montanov 202 or 165 type
- 2% - 3% Cetyl Alcohol
- 0.5% Carbomer or Aristoflex
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jemolian said:The soaping depends on a few factors though. If you have too much emulsifiers with too little lipid content to match, too much gums, etc. Perhaps it’s best to reduce the Olivem 1000 to a lower percentage, but it depends on the percentage of oils that you have.
You can try a basic structure of the following and see if you like it:
- ~10% oils / esters / lipids
- 3% Montanov 202 or 165 type
- 2% - 3% Cetyl Alcohol
- 0.5% Carbomer or Aristoflex
Thank you Jemolian! I saw your post after I made another sample. I used 1% emulgin and 5% montanov 68 with 8% oils. I will try your structure for my next sample
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Elirit,
You said you disqualified sorbitan stearate due to price, but may I ask where you are finding Montanov 202 cheaper?If you are looking for inexpensive sorbitan stearate, Making Cosmetics has it.
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elirit said:jemolian said:The soaping depends on a few factors though. If you have too much emulsifiers with too little lipid content to match, too much gums, etc. Perhaps it’s best to reduce the Olivem 1000 to a lower percentage, but it depends on the percentage of oils that you have.
You can try a basic structure of the following and see if you like it:
- ~10% oils / esters / lipids
- 3% Montanov 202 or 165 type
- 2% - 3% Cetyl Alcohol
- 0.5% Carbomer or Aristoflex
Thank you Jemolian! I saw your post after I made another sample. I used 1% emulgin and 5% montanov 68 with 8% oils. I will try your structure for my next sample
I’m guessing….that cream came out pretty thick with those ratios of emulsifiers? You won’t need much in the way of fatty alcohols then…. So if you want one that (in my opinion) feels awesome….. Consider Cetyl Esters….doesn’t thicken nearly as well as the other…but OH the FEEL!
When I was using Eumulgin….I was using it at .125%, and felt like it was destroying the lightness of the cream. It is used with the Montanov’s to prevent phase inversions. GSC will also do this…and keep the cream light.
Keep in mind… Carbomer and Aristoflex…don’t like electrolytes.
I get my GSC at Making Cosmetics…as well.
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Graillotion said:elirit said:jemolian said:The soaping depends on a few factors though. If you have too much emulsifiers with too little lipid content to match, too much gums, etc. Perhaps it’s best to reduce the Olivem 1000 to a lower percentage, but it depends on the percentage of oils that you have.
You can try a basic structure of the following and see if you like it:
- ~10% oils / esters / lipids
- 3% Montanov 202 or 165 type
- 2% - 3% Cetyl Alcohol
- 0.5% Carbomer or Aristoflex
Thank you Jemolian! I saw your post after I made another sample. I used 1% emulgin and 5% montanov 68 with 8% oils. I will try your structure for my next sample
I’m guessing….that cream came out pretty thick with those ratios of emulsifiers? You won’t need much in the way of fatty alcohols then…. So if you want one that (in my opinion) feels awesome….. Consider Cetyl Esters….doesn’t thicken nearly as well as the other…but OH the FEEL!
When I was using Eumulgin….I was using it at .125%, and felt like it was destroying the lightness of the cream. It is used with the Montanov’s to prevent phase inversions. GSC will also do this…and keep the cream light.
Keep in mind… Carbomer and Aristoflex…don’t like electrolytes.
I get my GSC at Making Cosmetics…as well.
Yes it came out really thick lol. Do you think I should reduce percentage of eumulgin (1%) and then add cetyl esters? Where do you buy your cetyl esters? Again, grateful for all this knowledge.
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In theory, try reducing your Montanov 68 to 3.5% and see how it goes. Alternatively reduce both slightly.
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jemolian said:In theory, try reducing your Montanov 68 to 3.5% and see how it goes. Alternatively reduce both slightly.
Thank you! Dumb question: is cetyl esters the same as cetyl alcohol?
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suswang8 said:Elirit,
You said you disqualified sorbitan stearate due to price, but may I ask where you are finding Montanov 202 cheaper?If you are looking for inexpensive sorbitan stearate, Making Cosmetics has it.
Sorry, just saw this post. The small batch factory I contacted stated that the sorbitan stearate was too expensive. I did not ask the cosmetic chemist why it was it the original formula. So I have been making samples without it. Thank you.
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Please disregard question about cetyl esters. I realized they are different.
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elirit said:Graillotion said:elirit said:jemolian said:The soaping depends on a few factors though. If you have too much emulsifiers with too little lipid content to match, too much gums, etc. Perhaps it’s best to reduce the Olivem 1000 to a lower percentage, but it depends on the percentage of oils that you have.
You can try a basic structure of the following and see if you like it:
- ~10% oils / esters / lipids
- 3% Montanov 202 or 165 type
- 2% - 3% Cetyl Alcohol
- 0.5% Carbomer or Aristoflex
Thank you Jemolian! I saw your post after I made another sample. I used 1% emulgin and 5% montanov 68 with 8% oils. I will try your structure for my next sample
I’m guessing….that cream came out pretty thick with those ratios of emulsifiers? You won’t need much in the way of fatty alcohols then…. So if you want one that (in my opinion) feels awesome….. Consider Cetyl Esters….doesn’t thicken nearly as well as the other…but OH the FEEL!
When I was using Eumulgin….I was using it at .125%, and felt like it was destroying the lightness of the cream. It is used with the Montanov’s to prevent phase inversions. GSC will also do this…and keep the cream light.
Keep in mind… Carbomer and Aristoflex…don’t like electrolytes.
I get my GSC at Making Cosmetics…as well.
Yes it came out really thick lol. Do you think I should reduce percentage of eumulgin (1%) and then add cetyl esters? Where do you buy your cetyl esters? Again, grateful for all this knowledge.
First, Eumulgin is a potent emulsifier, meaning a little…goes a long way. Let me paste some info below:
- For a thick lotion or cream, start with 1.0% Eumulgin SG and up to 5% cetearyl alcohol in the heated oil phase of your product.
- For a thinner product, start with 0.25% Eumulgin SG and 2.5% cetearyl alcohol in the heated oil phase of your product.
- For a thin lotion, use 0.5% Eumulgin SG with 1% Glyceryl Stearate
- For a much thicker cream use 1.0% Eumulgin SG with 3.75% Glyceryl Stearate.
- Typical usage rate: 0.25 - 2.0%.
So you can see by the use rate, a little goes a LONG WAY. So all by itself at 1%, you are getting a thick product, without even giving consideration to the M 68. Any fatty alcohols…will keep adding to the thickness.
View the Eumulgin as a crutch for the Montanov’s. .2% should be plenty. Again you are using it to ward off phase inversions. It is not known for creating amazing textures!
Since you have plenty of viscosity….Cetyl Esters is a nice selection vs C Alcohol….since it creates less viscosity. I buy mine at LotionCrafters.
As with any project….trial and error…keep changing ratios one at a time….until you are happy. My last cream….took 29 versions.
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BTW….Cetyl Esters can take up to 48 hours to show their full viscosity…so do not judge the final product…for at least a day.
I use Cetyl Esters at 1.1% in my cream. This will vary with what type of emulsifier you use…. If 165…then need more. -
Graillotion said:BTW….Cetyl Esters can take up to 48 hours to show their full viscosity…so do not judge the final product…for at least a day.
I use Cetyl Esters at 1.1% in my cream. This will vary with what type of emulsifier you use…. If 165…then need more.Thank you! I read the same info on lotioncrafter earlier. Today I bought cetyl esters and 165 and alkyl benzoate to trial. Yesterday I decreased eumulgin to 0.5% and 68 to 3.5%(still soapy). Also, does tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate interact with 165 as I have that in my formula. I read it interacts with PEG on one site but have not seen that on other sites. Lastly, I have 0.4 % xanthan gum in my formula. If the cream is already thick with 68, is there a need for the gum or was it added due to stability? Thanks again. Btw, my cosmetic chemist disappeared after I recceived formula so that is why I am asking certain questions regarding my formula.
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I mentioned previously, that the gum might also cause soapiness besides from the over use of emulsifiers, so you can consider:
- 0.25% Eumulgin + 3.5% Montanov 68 + 0.15% Xanthan Gum (Likely to still have some soaping, if not you can consider adding dimethicone or other agents as a replacement)
- 3.5% Montanov with 0.75% Aristoflex (Should make a light cream, can increase to 1% for thicker viscosity)
For the Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate:
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elirit said:Graillotion said:BTW….Cetyl Esters can take up to 48 hours to show their full viscosity…so do not judge the final product…for at least a day.
I use Cetyl Esters at 1.1% in my cream. This will vary with what type of emulsifier you use…. If 165…then need more.Thank you! I read the same info on lotioncrafter earlier. Today I bought cetyl esters and 165 and alkyl benzoate to trial. Yesterday I decreased eumulgin to 0.5% and 68 to 3.5%(still soapy). Also, does tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate interact with 165 as I have that in my formula. I read it interacts with PEG on one site but have not seen that on other sites. Lastly, I have 0.4 % xanthan gum in my formula. If the cream is already thick with 68, is there a need for the gum or was it added due to stability? Thanks again. Btw, my cosmetic chemist disappeared after I recceived formula so that is why I am asking certain questions regarding my formula.
If soaping is your issue…we need to approach from a little different angle.
1) M 202 will soap less than M 68
2) Across the board, soaping is typically reduced by adding dimethicone, as mentioned above. However…if you are trying to be ‘cone free’….it can be done…but it will be costly! I use between 8-10% of super slip and slide ingredients to = what dimethicone does. I don’t think you have posted your full formula…another common culprit….is stearic acid.
3) If you use a polymeric…(plus what you have) you can certainly remove the gum. But memba…most polymeric’s don’t like your electrolytes. I think Zen can handle some. Aristoflex…Nope. I also use Aristoflex…and love it. I think a lot of people say….Zen gets a little jiggly above .5%. So maybe don’t exceed that.I don’t know anything about tetrahexyldecyl.
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