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Formulating with Naticide and PET Test results
Hi Everybody,
Please I need an opinion about my assumption.I used Naticide in my product as a preservative.Unfortunately, the PET test came back negative on 2 kinds of bacteria with a low number after 28 days (300)I hope after reading this whole weekend I figure it finally out and there is something wrong in my manufacturing process.I added my whole 1% of Naticide in the water phase.Sinerga (producer of Naticide) advises that a max of 0.6% can be added to the hydrophilic phase since NATICIDE® is water dispersible only up to 0.6% ( What does this actually mean?)If the percentage of NATICIDE® in the formulation is higher than 0.6%, the remaining amount should be added to the formulation at the end of the manufacturing process.My assumption is that because of my manufacturer’s mistake the PET test came back negative so if I adjust this process to their advice I hopefully get my PET test return back positive.Is this the right assumption?I hope somebody can help meCharley -
19 Replies
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Maybe… the undispersed 0.4% whould have to stick somewhere and, depending on manufacturing process, can either be lost (to the wall of the water vessel) of get incorporated properly into the product during emulsification.The problem with Naticide is that nobody except Synerga know what it actually is. Could be a very good or very poor preservative, could be a scam and a pile of lies, could be adulterated with whatever preservatives like several other ‘natural’ preservatives on the market… As long as I don’t see proper, independent data and know what’s really inside, I wouldn’t trust such a ‘preservative’, let alone use it as sole preservative. You can’t really adjust production processes when you don’t know what you’re using.Which bacteria did they find? Maybe add a second preservative which is strong against these
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As Pharma is spot on.
Natacide is a proprietary mixture. You should NOT use anything as preservative whose composition is not known and specified in CoA. The preservative is the only ingredient used exclusively for a safety purpose in your product, and you should not delegate safety to Synerga.Do not use this stuff..
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I sounds like the real issue is that your product is not properly preserved, more than a manufacturing issue or a Naticide issue. Without any further information, it really is not possible to give you any further advice:
Is this an emulsified product?
What is your final pH?
Are you using any preservative boosters, chelating agents and/or co-preservatives?
What two organisms caused your PET to fail? -
Pharma said:Maybe… the undispersed 0.4% whould have to stick somewhere and, depending on manufacturing process, can either be lost (to the wall of the water vessel) of get incorporated properly into the product during emulsification.The problem with Naticide is that nobody except Synerga know what it actually is. Could be a very good or very poor preservative, could be a scam and a pile of lies, could be adulterated with whatever preservatives like several other ‘natural’ preservatives on the market… As long as I don’t see proper, independent data and know what’s really inside, I wouldn’t trust such a ‘preservative’, let alone use it as sole preservative. You can’t really adjust production processes when you don’t know what you’re using.Which bacteria did they find? Maybe add a second preservative which is strong against these .
Thank you very much for your response
The bacteria they found are Candida albicans and Aspergillus brasiliensis.
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MarkBroussard said:@CHarley:
I sounds like the real issue is that your product is not properly preserved, more than a manufacturing issue or a Naticide issue. Without any further information, it really is not possible to give you any further advice:
Is this an emulsified product?
What is your final pH?
Are you using any preservative boosters, chelating agents and/or co-preservatives?
What two organisms caused your PET to fail?Thank you for your response
Yes it is an emulsified product
The final PH is 7.2 and I don’t use any other preservatives or boosters seen the supplier mention this:”Its broad spectrum activity allows it to be the only preservative needed in a cosmetic formulation. “The bacteria they found are Candida albicans and Aspergillus brasiliensis.
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@CHarley Candida and Aspergillus are not bacteria. Thus, you need to fortify your antifungal spectrum of the preservative system.
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Ok, so you have an issue with Yeast & Mold.
Why is your final pH 7.2? … is there an issue with reducing your pH to below 6.0 (preferrably pH 4.
?There is no single preservative that is effective solo in a cosmetic formulation that provides broad spectrum activity at any pH level … that is marketing hype.
Study up on using Hurdle Technology in your approach to preservation. As I mentioned, the problem is that your product is not properly preserved.
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PhilGeis said:As Pharma is spot on.
Natacide is a proprietary mixture. You should NOT use anything as preservative whose composition is not known and specified in CoA. The preservative is the only ingredient used exclusively for a safety purpose in your product, and you should not delegate safety to Synerga.Do not use this stuff..
Thank you for your opinion
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MarkBroussard said:Ok, so you have an issue with Yeast & Mold.
Why is your final pH 7.2? … is there an issue with reducing your pH to below 6.0 (preferrably pH 4.
?There is no single preservative that is effective solo in a cosmetic formulation that provides broad spectrum activity at any pH level … that is marketing hype.
Study up on using Hurdle Technology in your approach to preservation. As I mentioned, the problem is that your product is not properly preserved.
Thank you I will Study about the Hurdle Technology
I think I can reduce the PH I have to read in that also, to be honest, I wanted as close as possible to PH Balanced between pH 4 and pH 7 with my ingredients I ended up at 7.2 and it makes me happy enough
I will look at every individual ingredient and their PH Value -
I am wondering how your preservative did not fail for gram positive and negative bacterias at pH 7 with this preservative?
Can you post the PET results here!
as @MarkBroussard said why pH 7?
This pH doesn’t make your product milder, doesn’t have any benefit for skin and it is the pH where microbes are most powerful. -
I’ll add
PET (USP? Iso?) is validated to neither manufacturing nor consumer protection. It merely says you have a degree of efficacy. Design a system that should work and confirm it at least passes in the PET.
NO single preservative is effectively broad spectrum - that is nothing but supplier salesmanship. -
CHarley said:MarkBroussard said:Ok, so you have an issue with Yeast & Mold.Why is your final pH 7.2? … is there an issue with reducing your pH to below 6.0 (preferrably pH 4.
?There is no single preservative that is effective solo in a cosmetic formulation that provides broad spectrum activity at any pH level … that is marketing hype.
Study up on using Hurdle Technology in your approach to preservation. As I mentioned, the problem is that your product is not properly preserved.
Thank you I will Study about the Hurdle Technology
I think I can reduce the PH I have to read in that also, to be honest, I wanted as close as possible to PH Balanced between pH 4 and pH 7 with my ingredients I ended up at 7.2 and it makes me happy enough
I will look at every individual ingredient and their PH Value@MarkBroussard ….what would you add to a typical emulsion that only lacked yeast and mold protection? Lets assume we are making a proper product, and have the pH at 4.8 (which I do…in all but one product with urea).
@CHarley… your pH in that range will make it very difficult to preserve. Skin will thank you for taking the pH down to the recommended 4.8! Just add lactic acid to the water phase until you hit that mark.
Here is a nice chart on hurdle tech, that someone once provided me:
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@Graillotion and how do you adjust Aw to 0.8 or below?
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Aw can’t be easily adjusted and quantified. I have seen it done, but honestly it was in Food Science, not personal care. From the same presentation;
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@Graillotion,
@Abdullah,
@PhilGeis,
@Microformulation,All thank you for your responses I notice that I have to read a lot more.
I appreciate all the input -
Be careful with “Hurdle” technology - it’s not for the inexperienced. It establishes inhibition rather than kill - so may not give a PET “pass”. Compromise of any factor - even temporarily in making - can bring the house down.
In any case, good luck CHarley!
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PhilGeis said:Be careful with “Hurdle” technology - it’s not for the inexperienced. It establishes inhibition rather than kill - so may not give a PET “pass”. Compromise of any factor - even temporarily in making - can bring the house down.
In any case, good luck CHarley!
Thank you very much
I will keep the house complete
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Yes…hurdle technology is JUST a crutch to assist your full spectrum preservative, not a replacement for it.
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