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Formulating eco-friendly plant-based surfactants dishwash gel & powder
Hello,
Can anyone give advice on formulating eco-friendly plant-based surfactants dishwash gel which is free of sulphates & phosphates.Also, plant-based surfactants dishwash powder concentrate, which can be added to water to make final product.
Thanks.
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36 Replies
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My approach was to saponify plant oils. It ticks all the boxes. And produced a very profitable dish wash liquid.
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Liquid. Assume hand dishwash?
eco-friendly is meaningless, you can say that about +/- anything. plant based - you could use plant based SLS Na lauryl sulfate. phosphate free - you’d have a difficult time finding a liquid hand dishwash product with phosphate.
Sulfate free - you can true some glucosides - decy l - amine oxides, etc. or a true soap-based product as Mike mentioned. For true soap, your consumer will have to deal with soap scum - esp. those consumers with hard water.
Automatics are tougher - esp. powders that often use phosphates to address hard water.
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Yes indeed, liquid hand dish wash.
When you say “eco-friendly is meaningless,” I disagree. Using only plant oils and not the usual synthetics (or their greenwashed synthetics) goes some way to be eco-friendly.
And I have difficulty with your reference to “plant based SLS Na lauryl sulfate, ” and much prefer to use saponified plant oils. A lot more eco-friendly once they go back into our environment.
To-date, after many years of producing ” true soap,” have never had complaints of “soap scum.”
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This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by mikethair.
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ecofriendly is subjective nontechnical ad-speak.
of course SLS can be plant based - C12 alkyl from coconut. Soap is more (meaningless) ecofriendly? How so?
synthetic surfactants were successful for one reason - no more soap scum “Saponified oils” = soap.
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This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by PhilGeis.
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This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by
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This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by
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According to the dictionary, the term “ecofriendly” means “not harmful to the environment, or trying to help the environment.” I referred to the Cambridge Dictionary. So not, as you have said, “subjective nontechnical ad-speak.”
And again, I have never had issues with soap scum.
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Thanks Mike - no technical definition. Please speak to science not ad speak.
Figure a guy selling a product sees no problem with it. The entire surfactant market was established 6853.s based soap scum that folks knew and now quite well.
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This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by PhilGeis.
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Typos aside - the meaning is pretty clear.
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Yes indeed, the science is clear. I produced these products for 17 years, after spending one year perfecting the formulation, including extensive consumer evaluations globally. Yep, DHL loved me!!!
Saponification is complex, and the formulation has many variables, including the oils used, saponification values used, and super-fat calculations.
And, scum was not an issue with what I finally produced.
Question? Have you yourself ever produced these products, or are you simply trotting out well-known fallacies perpetuated by the producers of synthetic cleansers?
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A side story to all of this. As a scientist, I wanted to push things a bit further, and as I was living in Malaysia at the time where I realised there was a lot of used Palm Oil being discarded down drains.
So I teamed up with a group of intellectually and physically disabled to collect this used palm oil, and I spent months teaching them how to saponify this collected Palm Oil to produce a general household cleaner, package and sell to produce themselves some income.
And this project still runs today providing them with a sustainable income.
So I will leave all your negativity with you, and your expertise in digging up references from the web, while I continue with my work as a scientist and to turn my knowledge into something that can benefit those who are disadvantaged.
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Please Mike - the subject is technology/science of formulae , not your life story, ego and tiny, obscure brands.
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This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by PhilGeis.
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I’m an individual, so I post what I want, and I don’t need your permission before posting.
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This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by
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Agree Mike - soap making is as much an art as a science/technology. This alone is a compelling reason why andy982183 should not pursue soap as basis for his product.
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Indeed, soap making is an art, and in doing so it provides an opportunity to make your mark in the marketplace.
And at the same time, a chance to share your philosophy and identity, and this is what people are buying into. In taking this stance, you are not bossed around by the consumer or market and become more driven by your own convictions. In my case, it was old-fashioned values from simpler times and exotic fragrances that you away to a time and place where life moves more leisurely.
And a very good reason why andy982183 should pursue soap as the basis for his product.
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This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by mikethair.
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And how is OP to learn soap making - and why, it is poor surfactant technology that consumer have rejected. Philosophy? What “philosophy” do you perceive for Head & Shoulders, the best selling shampoo in the world?
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perhaps this is a matter of semantics - think your philosophy may translate to hype.
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This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by
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This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by
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I’m doing the best I can within my limited capacity as a scientist. Maybe I should give it up, I’m obviously not performing to your high expectations.
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Good idea, if the science is beyond you,
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This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by PhilGeis.
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This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by
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Why don’t you look into bio-surfactants. Check out BioRenuva’s offerings.
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Thanks everyone for your inputs, I am non-chemistry background guy.
So, It would be very helpful if anyone can give suggestion in formulating with following ingredients:Alkyl polyglucosides
Surfactant derived from Coconut
Phenoxyethanol
SaltThanks a lot.
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Search websites like UL Prospector for starting formulations. Also look at suppliers websites (e.g. Stepan, Colonial Chem etc). This will give you a good idea of what percentage of surfactants etc you will need and some basic manufacturing instructions.
Without sulfates it will be much more difficult to get good foaming (not impossible just more difficult). Are sulfonates acceptable?
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With your comment “Without sulfates it will be much more difficult to get good foaming (not
impossible just more difficult),” I have found that by using the right combination of saponified plant oils, good foaming is not an issue. For example, coconut oil is a good one to add to a combination of oils to increase foaming.The global brand Dr Bronners, who also saponify plant oils, do not have foaming issues. And of course you can avoid all the health issues of using synthetic surfactants.
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As I said above it is more difficult not impossible to get good foaming without sulfate.
FYI - Dr Bronner uses sulfate surfactants in their multipurpose cleaning product. It is recommended for washing dishes among other things.
https://www.drbronner.com/collections/all/products/sal-suds-biodegradable-cleaner
drbronner.com
Sal Suds Biodegradable Cleaner
For floor, laundry or dishes, this concentrated, all-purpose, non-toxic cleaner, cuts dirt, grease & powerful yet gentle. Plant-based ingredients & cruelty-free.
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Thanks ozgirl, good to know.
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This is a synthetic surfactant based product.
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Than a lot for you reply.
Also, can I hire any good formulator from hear to develop similar kind of product.Thanks.
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I’m available and have developed and produced similar products.
From nothing, in 2006, I co-founded two skincare manufacturing factories, which ran until 2023. This gives me 17 years experience of hands-on experience in formulating and making skincare plus various dish washes. My products were exported globally.
It’s best to contact me directly via email: mikethair@gmail.com
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health issues - that’s more BS.
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Here’s a pic of the dish wash I produced and exported globally.
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To @PhilGeis point, the formation of scum from soaps is a very well documented phenomena. Not only because of the physical residues, but because unlike sodium/potassium soaps which have foaming properties (not comparable to sulfates or sulfonates, but that’s a different story), calcium soaps are know defoamers. I attached a book image for rerefence. And for soaps, it’s not hard to form calcium salts, especially in cities with high levels of hard water and in the absence of a robust chelating system.
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A simple search on Amazon will find plenty of dishwash “soap” products based on surfactants with eco-friendly/natural. enviro positioning - with and without sulfate.
e.g. Puracy line https://www.amazon.com/Puracy-Natural-Sulfate-Free-Dishwashing-Detergent/dp/B00HAPEXLK
its surfactant system - Lauryl/Myristyl Glucoside (Coconut Oil-Based Cleanser), Cocamidopropyl Hydroxysultaine (Coconut-Based Cleanser), Sodium Lauroamphoacetate (Coconut Oil-Based Cleanser), Lauramine Oxide (Coconut-Based Cleanser),
You’ll have a very difficult time finding on Amazon or google one based on true soap - metallic salt of a fatty acid such as that from saponification of plant oils.
True soap was the basis for surfactant products (shampoos, dish and clothes wash products) until mid 20th century consumer switched en masse to then new synthetic surfactant products (Dreft for dishwasher - Dopal, Drell, Tide for other apps) based on absence of soap scum and reduced irritancy in use.
https://homegeargeek.com/who-invented-dishwashing-liquid/
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dishwashing_liquid
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This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by PhilGeis.
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Yes, but there is a niche in the marketplace that does not want to use these synthetic surfactant products. It’s that simple. Of course, this niche is of no interest to the large conglomerates that dominate this market.
Again, we never had any issues with soap scum. This is due to the formulation I produced.
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This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by
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@mikethair It is certainly a positive to utilize your efforts to bring about positive change in one’s Community. In fact, in our initial brief to potential clients, we would identify a key part of Sustainability as being a positive corporate citizen, We have worked with lines who have facilitated the production of Argan Oil in Morrocan cooperatives populated by Widows and orphans, worked with a line that sent 5% of their annual net profits to Peruvian Orphanages, and a past line recently sent it’s entire inventory to people affected by Hurricane Helene here in the US. However, respectfully there is always a danger of setting a marketing metric (soaps good, syndets bad) as an immoveable goalpost as you will eventually find you will marginalize your efforts to engage in innovation. This is a recurring topic at numerous marketing symposiums I have attended.
We worked with several lines that utilized saponified soaps here in the US. While well received in niche markets, if you can look at objective sales data, these lines are generally self-limiting and generate a fraction of those using syndets. These products as well as “Natural” Insect Repellants are ubiquitous in most Farmer’s Markets and “Health Food” outlets here in the US. In my experience, syndets do possess some distinct advantages, are safe when appropriately formulated, and even offer some opportunities to meet sustainability standards. My root point is never to allow marketing to trump innovation.
@PhilGeis I agree with all your technical points. I have always respected and followed you as a credible industry asset. I simply believe he is so fixated on his root marketing and promotion of his line that you will fall on deaf ears. We saw this far too often in our initial client interactions and in fact, would generally use this as a reason to pass on certain projects. It may have been foolish from a marketing perspective, but we never lacked other opportunities and in general, my usual week was 60-plus hours.
I have recently retired but I do follow the Industry and products closely. I am simply weighing in as this discussion is starting to meander and lose sight of the true Technical value of this fantastic resource. As Scientists I believe we have an obligation to set the bar in discussions and as representatives in our Technical Fields.
Enough lecturing from me I suppose. As I followed the thread, I simply felt it was getting out of hand. Have a Great Day everyone.
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Thanks for your kind words and details of your own endeavours.
Soapmaking is an interest of mine and for years in Malaysia and Viet Nam the focus of our business. It provided much-needed employment in the local community. And an opportunity to export globally.
Yes, it is a niche industry and massive profits and turnover were never our aim. But financially, we did well.
For a large company, I would not recommend traditional soap making.
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I understand. I have worked with some lines where making money and capturing market share were never their focus. We learned to carefully vet these lines and one in particular (based on soaps and anhydrous products) is available in gift shops and small markets in Long Island. NY. My reason for vetting them was that early on we took on lines that had unrealistic expectations and lacked the requisite skills. In the case of their failures, they would deflect the blame on us, often in a public and petulant manner. As we learned, we were able to foster some great small lines. Often I would use this as learning exercises for our newer staff.
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Thanks. That’s a great insight.
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Thanks Mark - sad to hear you’re retiring.
As you know, my career was largely with a company founded on soap. do not claim to be a soap maker but worked with some of the best. you don’t such technologists/artists now. I saw the transition from our trademark soap to synthetics - driven by FA irritation, soap scum and early syndet positioning in liquids, etc. Here, you can still find Ivory, Kirkland (classic), Fels, Amazon cats and dogs, etc. as much novelty than niche based on cost, nostalgia, perceptions of “natural” and purity - and with the granola crowd. Soap has significant presence in developing regions - again cost and ingredient supply limits for syndets.
I’m familiar with the cynical marketing BS of syndet “health issues”, “no soap scum” in a “soap” context - in an alleged good cause makes these no more credible. Add here “saponified plant oils” for marketing of a an obscure “global” product. We didn’t resort to the 1st two. Experience shampoo market shift from soap to synthetics decades before and understand consumers better than prob anyone.
Lastly - the OP asked after a gel dishwash. Suggesting soap when make the stuff is very far from trivial and with no one to train is pretty useless.
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