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Ferulic acid degradation or interacting with other ingredients
Hi,
several month before I have made hyaluronic acid (1%) serum with ferulic acid 0.3 % (dissolved in heated propanediol 5 %).
Also included MAP (mg ascorbyl phosphate), preservative potassium sorbate.
The initial data: pH 6; odour - neutral.
After one month in 40C temperature - serum acquired strong odor like diethyl ether used in dentistry or some of a kind as clove essential oil (Syzygium aromaticum). Please tell, what do you think happened? As ferulic acid is 4-hydroxy -3 -methoxycinnamic acid, suppose it degraded into other compound or has interact with other ingredients?Thank you.
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8 Replies
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Ascorbic acid degrades to a plethora of aroma compounds (before polymerising to dark pigments). Ferulic acid can speed up AA degradation and might, in theory, also form aroma compounds but, I guess, is more likely to simply polymerise to yuck.
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Pharma said:Ascorbic acid degrades to a plethora of aroma compounds (before polymerising to dark pigments). Ferulic acid can speed up AA degradation and might, in theory, also form aroma compounds but, I guess, is more likely to simply polymerise to yuck.Pharma, thank you very much for your comment. How do you think I could prevent it? to increase percentage of propanediol or adding other polyols, or smth. else, like antioxidants BHT or other? or better to use other form of ferulic acid more stable (ethylhexyl ferulate or encapsulated FA)?
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Silvia said:Hi,
several month before I have made hyaluronic acid (1%) serum with ferulic acid 0.3 % (dissolved in heated propanediol 5 %).
Also included MAP (mg ascorbyl phosphate), preservative potassium sorbate.
The initial data: pH 6; odour - neutral.
After one month in 40C temperature - serum acquired strong odor like diethyl ether used in dentistry or some of a kind as clove essential oil (Syzygium aromaticum). Please tell, what do you think happened? As ferulic acid is 4-hydroxy -3 -methoxycinnamic acid, suppose it degraded into other compound or has interact with other ingredients?Thank you.
Hi probably dumb questions here (by me) but I have been researching (for my own use only) the patent etc by L’Oreal on stability etc of Ascorbic Acid in conjunction with Ferulic Acid from what I can gather (again my mistakes if I dont understand) is with 15% L-ascorbic acid + 1% alpha tocopherol and 0.5% ferulic acid that this enhances antioxidant benefits and the stability of Vit C and E. (note this is with pH within 2.5 to 3.5 range).
So could the problem be pH of 6 too high - as all info I have found re Vit C works better at around pH 3.5 (assume more stable? or not) and the products should be be stored away from light in airtight containers. I am planning to make a few face gels/serums for myself at some stage (just playing with to see what hype of Vit C etc all about as I have never used). I was planning on adding up to 1% of Phloretin (would like to use less as very expensive) - Anyway if I am way off target would be good to know before I purchase some of the more expensive ingredients. Hope I havent hijacked the original discussion! (if so just ignore). Cheers all.
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Squinny said:Silvia said:Hi,
several month before I have made hyaluronic acid (1%) serum with ferulic acid 0.3 % (dissolved in heated propanediol 5 %).
Also included MAP (mg ascorbyl phosphate), preservative potassium sorbate.
The initial data: pH 6; odour - neutral.
After one month in 40C temperature - serum acquired strong odor like diethyl ether used in dentistry or some of a kind as clove essential oil (Syzygium aromaticum). Please tell, what do you think happened? As ferulic acid is 4-hydroxy -3 -methoxycinnamic acid, suppose it degraded into other compound or has interact with other ingredients?Thank you.
Hi probably dumb questions here (by me) but I have been researching (for my own use only) the patent etc by L’Oreal on stability etc of Ascorbic Acid in conjunction with Ferulic Acid from what I can gather (again my mistakes if I dont understand) is with 15% L-ascorbic acid + 1% alpha tocopherol and 0.5% ferulic acid that this enhances antioxidant benefits and the stability of Vit C and E. (note this is with pH within 2.5 to 3.5 range).
So could the problem be pH of 6 too high - as all info I have found re Vit C works better at around pH 3.5 (assume more stable? or not) and the products should be be stored away from light in airtight containers. I am planning to make a few face gels/serums for myself at some stage (just playing with to see what hype of Vit C etc all about as I have never used). I was planning on adding up to 1% of Phloretin (would like to use less as very expensive) - Anyway if I am way off target would be good to know before I purchase some of the more expensive ingredients. Hope I havent hijacked the original discussion! (if so just ignore). Cheers all.
Hi, Squinny,
it is nice you shared you comments regarding formulations with Ascorbic and ferulic acids. In my case I used Magnesium ascorbyl phosphate which as I remember can be around 6 pH. As I understand both of these ingredients are antioxidants and easily reactive in water formulations, so they both requiring additional stabilizers or antioxidants (maybe it could help) also I have read one article about encapsulated Ferulic acid and better stability. But probably the material would cost more. (regarding the light and packaging - yes I kept the serum in airless bottle and away from direct sunlight, so it these 2 factors couldn`t make a damage to formula).
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@Silvia I understand you’re not using Ascorbic acid in your serum, and rather, Magnesium ascorbyl phosphate (MAP). MAP is actually more estable than Ascosbic acid, and that’s why it’s chosen as an alternative. Why don’t you try one sample without ferulic acid, just to see how it goes? Also, do you use fragrance in your formula? That might also be the cause of the odor you’re sensing.
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Hi sorry I dont know enough about your issue to help. Maybe the temperature is the problem if it anything like Vit C and heat with food - Degradation of vitamins, probiotics and other active ingredients caused by exposure to heat, water and sunlight (nutraceuticalbusinessreview.com)
Are you keeping at 40 degrees for stability testing or some such reason? Most products I believe you should keep below 30 and preferably 25 degrees. If you ae selling the product maybe you just need to have a warning (again I dont know the rules but you could look into) that states to keep product in a cool dark place and use with 1 month etc? Keep the packaging to a lower volume of say 15ml to 30ml max? Sorry I would like to assist more but dont have any other answers for you as I havent started on any Vit C products yet just doing research at this stage and for my own personal use not to sell. Maybe do a few test batches and keep at various temps and see what the results are like?. The Institute Of Personal Care Sciences have a few video’s on Youtube on formulating with Vit C and stability so may be worth a look. Also Labmuffin have some good info on Vit C. Hope it works out for you. Cheers
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Hi,
thank you for your comments, it is really good to receive more information and shared experience with the formulation issues. Squinny, regarding temperature range the odor changed in samples incubated at 40 C and at up 25 C (room temperature) as well. So I don`t think that temperature was the main factor. As for Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate so indeed I used it in cream fromula, so I know that temperature higher than 25 speed up color changes to yelowish and brown. But for this case with Ferulic acid smth goes wrong so I have the same opinion as Ketchito and will try to make serum without FA and will see. -
Hi Silvia - I plan making some products soon (over the next month or so) with different forms of Vit C and for Serums and creams/lotions so will see how I go and report any issues that I find - I only plan doing small amounts and only for myself to begin with ( I wont be keeping any at 40 C though ) - and I planned to use Ferulic Acid in some. I will now do a tests with and without it and see. In meantime if you have results without Ferulic would be good to know too. Wishing you all the best and I think this is a great forum to learn from each other. I wish I had more to offer and as time goes on hopefully I will. Cheers
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