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  • ajw000

    October 8, 2021 at 3:29 pm


    Am I correct that span= polysorbate. So polysorbate 80 or 20? 

  • ariepfadli

    October 8, 2021 at 5:33 pm

    Tween= polysorbate ( more high number more hydrophilic)

    Span= sorbitan monoalkyl ( oleate/stearate/etc) more high number more olephilic
    You need span ( sorbitan mono laurate/olerate/palmitate/or stearate) just try to combine to get best emulsion
  • ajw000

    October 8, 2021 at 9:57 pm

    Any suggestions on sorbitan oleate vs stearate? 

  • ariepfadli

    October 8, 2021 at 10:21 pm

    Try stearate

  • Abdullah

    October 9, 2021 at 3:23 am

    ketchito said:

    Abdullah said:

    @ketchito 30 minutes for what batch size? 

    Let’s say for a 100kg, but this also depends on your mixing speed and the ratio of your mixer diameter/container diameter, so the 20-30 min are referential (the main idea is to give the system enough energy to overcome crystalization while increasing interactions for later micellar arrangement).

    I thought it is for small or sample batches because  the emulsion he is making is less than 500g

  • prow18

    October 16, 2021 at 7:12 pm

    would Peg-40 hydrogenated castor oil be a good fit for this formulation? 

    Best results so far with Ceteareth-20/ PEG-100 Glyceryl Stearate / Sorbitan Stearate 

    Still separates when putting it through stress testing, and sweats on the surface after cooling. 

  • ajw000

    October 16, 2021 at 8:09 pm

    @prow18 I’ve tried adding PEG-40 HCO.. Not sure if it helps or not. 

    Yep, I’ve tried increasing all those emulsifiers and its still acting funny after sitting. 

  • ajw000

    October 25, 2021 at 12:56 am

    @ketchito It does appear that the PVP/VA copolymer is a large part of the problem. I figured out a stable formula and then added PVP/VA after. Great w/out, starts sweating and unstable after adding. 

    Any suggestions for increasing stability with it? 

    I know reducing it is an option. I do notice hold seems to increase over time in the hair, is there anything that can make the hold more immediate? 

  • ketchito

    October 25, 2021 at 2:45 pm

    @ajw000 Yes, water soluble polymers can be difficult to include in some emulsions. One thing you could do is to add some polymeric emulsifier (like Sepigel 305). Another option would be to replace PVP/VA copolymer by a mixture of Hydroxypropyl starch phosphate and Polyquaternium-55. 

  • ajw000

    October 25, 2021 at 3:49 pm


    I would have to look into getting those, and I’m under tight deadlines, and most suppliers have a month plus wait time right now. 

    I use the same PVP & PVP/VA items in other styling products. Any reason as to why it would work in all the others, but not this one? 

    Would something like  Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate Crosspolymer or sodium carbomer help with stability? 

  • ketchito

    October 26, 2021 at 1:51 pm

    @ajw000 You can try with Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate Crosspolymer (carbomer would only increase the viscosity of your water phase even more, and that might be the issue). You could also try replacing the Ceteareth-25 by Glyceryl Stearate and also replacing part of the Carnauba wax by Stearyl alcohol (this would increase thickness of the interphase). 

  • ajw000

    October 26, 2021 at 2:30 pm

    @ketchito And the idea is increasing the thickness will help increase stability? 

    For stability testing, what should be the ideal heat temp during heating/cooling phases? Is it normal if you get it hot to say 170f+ that it separates again? 

  • ketchito

    October 27, 2021 at 11:40 am

    @ajw000 Yes. By increasing the thickness of your interphase, you increase the stability of your emulsion.

    If you’re heating at 170F (emulsion phase), try to keep that temp during the whole emulsion process (which should last between 20-30 min, depending on your mixer…homogenizers require less time). But you shouldn’t see any separation during the entire manufacturing process. Make sure after emulsion, to start cooling down while at the same time, decrease the mixing speed which should only be high during the emulsion.

  • ajw000

    January 3, 2022 at 3:04 pm

    Hi All, 

    Circling back to this after many trials over the holidays.. The PVP/VA is definitely the culprit, the emulsions are completely stable prior to adding this, and even with the help of a carbomer or Acrylates it separates out like the pictures above. 

    I’ve tried mixing it in the water phase (yes, mix temps are higher than the melt temps of the wax phase.) 

    I’ve tried adding pvp after mixing the water phase, and that doesn’t help either. 

    Has anyone run into this issue before? 

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