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Confused with W/O emulsions (sorry, a bit lengthy)
Hi all!
Long time lurker, first time poster. I have been making W/O emulsified hair styling products for a few years with plenty of success. I have one tricky formula that has slight separation at the top layer but past that is a wonderful product. ‘m finally trying to chase down the issue because it makes it hard to have consistent pours and feel ok with it.My general process is Phase A oils/butters/waxes in Presto Pot until melted, then cool to 160-170*F. Phase B is water heated to 160-170*F, then poured into Phase A and mixed with a Kitchenaid stick blender. Cool down phase adds fragrance oil and preservative. My typical formulas are in these ranges (I have a lot of them, they all add up to 100% but hopefully the ranges give a good idea for my question):
20-35% water
35-45% waxes/butters/oils
3% Stearic Acid (in some formulas)
12% Emulsifying Wax NF or “Soft & Silky” (Cetearyl Alcohol/Ceteareth-20)
3% PEG-40 HCO
1% Optiphen Plus
2-4% Fragrance Oil
These have always come together and remained stable without issue.The formula I can’t keep stable is:
41% water
46% waxes/butters/oils
10% Emulsifying Wax (Cetearyl Alcohol/Polysorbate 60) or (Cetearyl Alcohol/Ceteareth-20) - both cause the same outcome
1% Optiphen Plus
2% Fragrance OilI ran all formulas through HLB and none of them are “in balance” but I read this is common with these types of e-waxes. I have tested this problem formula with HLB balanced ratios trying 7% e-wax and 6% Glyceryl Stearate and it was a little better but not enough to justify since it changes the way the end result feels.
I lowered the e-wax on this problem one from my normal formulas because the water was higher, but when I test 12% e-wax it still does not perform the same way. It holds together a bit more, but the spread is terrible as it balls up in my hand. I have run tests with 1-3% PEG-40 and it seems to help, but it causes a bit of soaping effect when spread in the hands. I’m having trouble really testing each ingredient change because every version foams/bubbles so much that the foam layer obscures the separation as it cools. This is the only formula I make that foams/bubbles this much on the top layer.
What brings me here is, I posted my issue to Swift Craft’s question area and she replied that these e-waxes are not meant for W/O emulsions and encouraged me to change oil phase % or seek out W/O emulsifying systems. At this point, I’m not even sure where to go since these E-Waxes work in everything else for me. Additionally I am not finding much help on W/O emulsions without getting into some really new stuff that I fear will drastically change the feel of this. I try to keep ingredients as “clean” as possible but I recognize the processing a lot of emulsifiers etc. go through.
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8 Replies
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they’re not W/O emulsions; polysorbate 60 and ceteareth-20 are both high HLB emulsifiers, so it’s not physically possible for them to form W/O emulsionsit sounds to me that your stable formulas are held together by sheer viscosity, and the higher water content of the unstable ones is thinning them and leading to separation on a much shorter timescale; instead of glyceryl stearate, try a low HLB emulsifier that comes in the form of a liquid (polyglyceryl-3 oleate, for instance), and just to be sure, try adding a little bit of xanthan gum (say, 0.1%) to the water phase, to reduce separation -
Bill_Toge said:they’re not W/O emulsions; polysorbate 60 and ceteareth-20 are both high HLB emulsifiers, so it’s not physically possible for them to form W/O emulsionsinstead of glyceryl stearate, try a low HLB emulsifier that comes in the form of a liquid (polyglyceryl-3 oleate, for instance), and just to be sure, try adding a little bit of xanthan gum (say, 0.1%) to the water phase, to reduce separationThis will take me some time to wrap my head around but I appreciate the reply and suggestions!
Just to clarify, would I use the polyglyceryl-3 oleate WITH E-Wax calculate HLB, etc. or just polyglyceryl-3 oleate and xantham gum in place of the current emulsifying system? Thanks again!
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What is wrong with this product except for soaping? And why you want it to be w/o?
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ngarayeva001 said:What is wrong with this product except for soaping? And why you want it to be w/o?
The separation on the top layer makes for an inconsistent texture and doesn’t feel professional to me. I was hoping it would be a simple fix but I’m 25 test batches in to try and stabilize it. The soaping only happens with PEG-40 and does not complement the product use for smoothing women’s hair styles. I definitely didn’t intend for it to be W/O, it’s just the right ratios for hair products that perform with some hold but still wash out a little easier and are primarily composed of “natural” ingredients. I didn’t know I was making an impossible or hard to emulsify product when I started 5 years ago LOL!
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I’ve not used e-waxes in a long time but have you considered changing your preservative since it might cause instability for some emulsifiers?
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jemolian said:I’ve not used e-waxes in a long time but have you considered changing your preservative since it might cause instability for some emulsifiers?
It’s a fair question, it is known to cause issues. I tested a jar without preservative and sadly, there was no change in the issue.
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Ok, you have an o/w emulsion with relatively high oil phase of 45%. It might be separating because your emulsifier can’t hold that much. You might want to try Arlacel 165 (GMS+PEG-100 stearate) at 7% and I would still add a little of ceteareth-20. I don’t recommend increasing emulsifiers above 7% because it will be hard to control soaping. In my own anecdotal experience arlacel 165 can hold 40% of oil. But so does TEA-stearate, cold creams usually include 40% or more of mineral oil. Add dimethicone to reduce soaping and waterphase stabiliser as was advised above (xanthan or carbomer). I am only referring to emulsifiers that I tried in products with high oil phase. I am sure there are others. I can guess ceteareth-20 would do a better job mixed with GMS not cetearyl alcohol. Another way of increasing stability is to add a little bit of anionic emulsifiers (maybe that’s the reason TEA stearate works with high oil phase). I don’t understand details of the mechanism but know this through experience and several chemists here mentioned it too. To summarise, there are several ways to save your product: completely change emulsifier, keep as it but add a small amount of TEA and stearic acid/or GMS SE (anionic one), add xanthan/carbomer, add dimethicone to control soaping.
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sciencewannabe said:Bill_Toge said:they’re not W/O emulsions; polysorbate 60 and ceteareth-20 are both high HLB emulsifiers, so it’s not physically possible for them to form W/O emulsionsinstead of glyceryl stearate, try a low HLB emulsifier that comes in the form of a liquid (polyglyceryl-3 oleate, for instance), and just to be sure, try adding a little bit of xanthan gum (say, 0.1%) to the water phase, to reduce separation
This will take me some time to wrap my head around but I appreciate the reply and suggestions!
Just to clarify, would I use the polyglyceryl-3 oleate WITH E-Wax calculate HLB, etc. or just polyglyceryl-3 oleate and xantham gum in place of the current emulsifying system? Thanks again!
yes, you’d need to use PG-3O or similar as well as an emulsifying wax/other high HLB emulsifier; on its own, it won’t form an emulsion at all
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