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Common Mistakes Made When Beginning To Formulate
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So, would you say ingredients such as VegeKeratin, Kera Repair, etc. will only provide noticeable benefits in products that are not washed off (conditioner, hair tonics, etc.)? Or do those ingredients only have label appeal and have no actual noticeable benefit at all?
It seems I should have became a member on this forum long before jumping into my cosmetic formulating journey :blush:
I am learning so much and I really appreciate all the information available on this forum and from actual chemists and the like. It is a valuable resource considering how much inaccurate information there is on the internet!
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@abierose - Yes, I would say that. I haven’t done any work with those specific ingredients however, they are water soluble so very little will be left behind on the hair. You may get some electrostatic attraction between the amino acids and damaged sites on hair protein, but it won’t out-compete the other cationic materials in the conditioner.
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@LovingItNatural do you have a Instagram so we can talk I’m also in the hair care industry
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@Perry
Oh wow, that is fascinating…ok, so it sounds like those ingredients might only be effective in a leave-in conditioner or something that is not washed off at all. In that situation, would other cationic conditioner ingredients still out-compete? And if so, is there any specific ingredients that you think are actually beneficial to the hair/scalp/follicles? In addition to trying to start a skincare line of some kind (still a long way away from that), in my “free” time, I have been working on a conditioner for personal use. Perhaps you wouldn’t mind taking a look at the latest formula I have..? I would really appreciate it!!
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This has been a very useful and eye opening discussion.
@Perry and other knowledgable formulators/cosmetic scientists, what are your thoughts on Pre-Wash/Pre-shampoo products. I have type 4 hair and I’ve used these for a while now and I am now questioning whether they are effective if they will only get washed off by a shampoo? Is it possible that if I put on a pre-wash leave on a day before I shampoo then shampoo the day after I would have just washed off the leave on? -
@abierose - If a product isn’t being washed out, then it can have its full effect on the hair. The “competition” between molecules doesn’t matter as much. No, I don’t really think ingredients benefit the follicle. Ingredients are more important for affecting the hair fibers.
@MsBG - Pre-wash products can work. I know the VO5 Hot Oil product I worked on actually affected hair even though it was applied before shampooing. This was because the cationic ingredient in the VO5 would react with the anionic surfactants in shampoo and provide additional conditioning. But mostly, I don’t think pre-wash products will have much impact that isn’t washed away.
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Perry said:@abierose - If a product isn’t being washed out, then it can have its full effect on the hair. The “competition” between molecules doesn’t matter as much. No, I don’t really think ingredients benefit the follicle. Ingredients are more important for affecting the hair fibers.
@MsBG - Pre-wash products can work. I know the VO5 Hot Oil product I worked on actually affected hair even though it was applied before shampooing. This was because the cationic ingredient in the VO5 would react with the anionic surfactants in shampoo and provide additional conditioning. But mostly, I don’t think pre-wash products will have much impact that isn’t washed away.
Thank you Perry. Which of ingredients in the VO5 hot oil treatment would you say are the most effective, if you still remember that is
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The Cocotrimonium Chloride and the PEI were the most effective.
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Hi I too found some natural skin and hair formulating courses were basically kitchen ingredient level based and not worth parting with the cash. However The Institute of Personal Care claim that their course is a Cosmetic Scientist Diploma level course, AQF recognised but in other countries this level is not equaled. Even though they cover a lot and are very thorough is it really worth investing thousands of dollars to make your own brand from it ?
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I’ve seen the Institute of Personal Care’s video on youtube, it’s indeed very thorough but seems quite basic to me.
Isn’t Perry have a natural cosmetics class here?Walkerette said:is it really worth investing thousands of dollars to make your own brand from it ?Starting a brand, it is not 100% necessary to know how the products are manufactured, you can work with a reputable cosmetics chemist and come up with a reasonable natural product. Or if it will be home made product, a reputable cosmetics chemist can also help you with that.
It is for you to decide if it is worth the money or not.
I paid for a personal class (basic level), at least I know what can be done and what can’t be done, so I won’t waste money and time asking the formulator to do the impossible tasks. -
@Walkerette - It all depends on your goals. The courses from the Institute of Personal Care are some of the better ones available as they are less naive about the cosmetic industry. But the diplomas given don’t really mean anything to companies in the cosmetic industry. While the information is good, the promise of making you a diploma carrying cosmetic chemist is an exaggeration.
That’s why our classes don’t promise diplomas or certifications or anything. I realize that granting such things is over promising what the course can actually do. Our courses prepare people for working in the cosmetic industry and teach you how to make cosmetic products as is done in industry. To get a job though, you’ll still need a college degree in something like Chemistry or Chemical Engineering.
But as @Pattsi said, if your goal is to make your own cosmetic brand, learning to make cosmetics is not a good use of money or time. You need to learn sales and marketing! Drunk Elephant, Sunday Riley, and Tata Harper weren’t successful because they learned to make their own formulas. They were successful because they learned how to tell a marketing story. They properly leveraged social media and advertising.
You might benefit from reading through the free report I wrote on the subject.
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Hi @LovingItNatural, I studied at formula botanica and I like their courses. I have had courses with many known schools and I can say that their courses are certainly good, much better than others, without mentioning names!
I can tell you that certainly some graduates of FB have launched successful skin care business.I always avoid losing my energy in the angry discussion about natural versus synthetic. At the end it is a personal choice! If you feel you want to go all natural, go for it! Certainly lots of natural raw material have real benefits despite what others may claim!, if you want to go for a mixture it is also all your decision.
It is amazing your experience with your hair. If you get similar results with people who have weak hair or hair growth problems, then this is a good indication that your product actually works! At the end, nobody can get 100% indisputable evidence that a certain skin or hair care product will certainly produce certain result! ask me! I had spent a fortune on skin care expensive products from large companies which did nothing to my skin or even made it worse!. Best of luck.
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@Haloul, this isn’t a place to preach about formula botanica. This a forum for professional chemists and those who are willing to follow scientific method. These people you mentioned can’t formulate and spread chemophobia and utter nonsense. They literally suggested to ‘infuse’ essential oils to water and filter it in several days.
So, I would like to add another common beginner’s mistake: not checking sources. -
@ngarayeva001 You are spot on!
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Thank you @Microformulation. This forum is very dear to my heart. I learnt so much here from your comments and comments of many others and I don’t want it to be turned to ‘mommy lotion making blog’. There are plenty of those on already.
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@ngarayeva001 Im not preaching for anyone and I’m not associated with FB in any way! The professional approach you mentioned should not allow as well to attack a reputable school, you like it or not!
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Haloul said:@ngarayeva001 Im not preaching for anyone and I’m not associated with FB in any way! The professional approach you mentioned should not allow as well to attack a reputable school, you like it or not!The only reputation they have…is among mommy bloggers.
Be careful what you say…this is a science based site… Not repeated hearsay.
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Graillotion said:Haloul said:@ngarayeva001 Im not preaching for anyone and I’m not associated with FB in any way! The professional approach you mentioned should not allow as well to attack a reputable school, you like it or not!
The only reputation they have…is among mommy bloggers.
Be careful what you say…this is a science based site… Not repeated hearsay.
Repeated hearsay !!!! It is better if you stop patronizing others who have different opinions and approach that yours!
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Guys/Girls please calm down.
Please don’t out cast anyone just yet.
Haloul said:I always avoid losing my energy in the angry discussion about natural versus synthetic. At the end it is a personal choice! If you feel you want to go all natural, go for it! Certainly lots of natural raw material have real benefits despite what others may claim!, if you want to go for a mixture it is also all your decision.I agree it is your personal choice and decision. But don’t forget when you put a product out, it is under FDA regulation so make sure your product is safe and not adulterated or misbranded.
One thing that is a problem to me, “all natural” people always claim natural is safer and better than synthetic but they didn’t submit methodological evidence, so how did they come to that conclusion?
On the other hand, synthetic have been proven what’s safe and what’s not.ngarayeva001 said:spread chemophobia and utter nonsense.So, I would like to add another common beginner’s mistake: not checking sources.I totally agree, so natural people please don’t spread chemophobia and utter nonsense.
Haloul said:@ngarayeva001 Im not preaching for anyone and I’m not associated with FB in any way! The professional approach you mentioned should not allow as well to attack a reputable school, you like it or not!From what I saw on the website, I (non-professional) have better equipment than theirs in my non-lab office.
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@Pattsi, although I am no fan of the idea of “natural” formulations, there are standards such as Wholefoods and Ecocert. One can make an Ecocert compliant product and yet make it safe and stable. Formula Botanica is not formulating in accordance with good practices. They are good at marketing and made people believe that they are a legitimate source, which they are not. I have nothing to do with them as I have been I preferring synthetics from the day I started formulating. The only reason I get into this conversation is that I that there are many inexperienced people reading this forum and it is important to flag it for their benefit.
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@ngarayeva001 I’m teamSynthetics, I’m not against natural tho if it’s a reasonable natural.
Putting an ecocert product out require quite a huge budget which I believe most startup entrepreneurs don’t have so they turned to online sources, that’s maybe one of the reasons why mommy lotion making blog became popular.
One blogger that I think I’m ok with is Humblebee&me, since she’d been developing over the past years, not chemophobic and use some synthetic ingredients in her formulas.
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Perry said:Keratin in a shampoo will have no noticeable benefit as far as I’ve seen in practice. It is water soluble and shampoo pretty much washes it all away. If you want smooth and shine from a shampoo, you’ll need a silicone, a cationic polymer or both. Keratin won’t make a shampoo better.
@perry First of all I am really thankful to this forum as it has cleared lots of misconceptions about various raw materials. I have learnt more from this forum and slowly adding to my knowledge.
I have a question though about silicones why does silicones get such a bad wrap. There are also some natural silicone alternatives in the market. Would they add the shine and smoothness to the hair just like synthetics. -
@raveena - Good question. I can only guess why silicones got a bad rap but I think some of the following factors are part of it…
1. Silicones work by depositing on the hair surface. Theoretically, this means they can build up. In practice however, this doesn’t happen to a significant extent.
2. Big companies use silicones in mass market products to get good results (E.g. Pantene, Tresemme, Fructis, etc.)
3. Stylists want people to buy products from them rather than things you can get for less money in the stores.
4. Silicones aren’t seen as “natural”
Add all those factoids together and you get the hate for silicones.
Yes, there are silicone alternatives on the market. The reality is that in practice they don’t work nearly as well as silicones. They just don’t. See the analogy I used in this discussion thread. https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/comment/54157#Comment_54157
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@perry Thank you perry for your reply. I am starting to see the clear picture now. Consumer perception and marketing are behind all the hype but it is actually not real. Reading all the comments from the experienced people maybe it’s fair to say that we should we starting with marketing and hype before we even start the formulation. I was one of those consumers so this forum is a real eye-opener.
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For large batches you should print the formula, write the amount of each ingredient, weight and prepare each ingredient separately, recheck, better by another person and then start the production without further thinking or weighting. This way you will be %100 sure you make what you want to make.
If you prepare one ingredient and add it and then prepare another ingredient, there is a chance you make a mistake. And in lage batches mistakes couse a lot of pain.
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