Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating Hair Cationic guar precipitation

  • Cationic guar precipitation

    Posted by abdullah on March 13, 2024 at 1:31 am

    <div>100 ml batch</div>

    Ingredients

    <div>

    A hot water

    B 0.23%Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride

    C 0.35% lactic acid (85%)

    D 0.04% CMI MI and formalin each

    Final pH 3.5-3.8



    Added b to a, mixed for 5 minutes

    Added c and mixed for 20 minutes

    Added d and mixed for 5 minutes more


    Next day cationic guar had precipitated.


    What can be the problem and how to solve it?


    Attached is guar gum specifications and precipitation photo




    </div>

    abdullah replied 3 weeks, 3 days ago 3 Members · 17 Replies
  • 17 Replies
  • ketchito

    Member
    March 13, 2024 at 6:40 am

    Guar HPTC is not soluble by its own in water, but only dispersible. It is expected to precipitate over time due to its molecular weight. You need to either suspend it, or solubilize it (like what the excess of SLES does in a shampoo formula).

  • paprik

    Member
    March 13, 2024 at 3:41 pm

    You can use the search bar to see if someone asked about this already. šŸ™‚

    • abdullah

      Member
      March 16, 2024 at 1:35 am

      @Paprik how did you solve your problem? Looks like they are the same

      • paprik

        Member
        March 16, 2024 at 9:14 pm

        1. Water with Cationic Guar, chelating agent and citric acid to drop the pH - mix for 20 mins

        2. Start heating

        3. Add surfactants to mix it thru and disolve/melt

        4. Cooldown. Preservatives, adjusting pH, fragrance etc …

        5. NaCl

        So far it always worked for me. I am using Sodium Coco Sulfate, Cocamidopropyl Betaine and Sodium Lauryl Glucose Carboxylate as my surfactants atm.

        Hope this helps Abdullah šŸ™‚

        • abdullah

          Member
          March 16, 2024 at 10:24 pm

          Thanks

          Some questions

          1. What cationic guar do you use? The one i have purchased recently, supplier said Our product LH-1470 can replace the product C13s from Tianci.

          2. How much citric acid do you use and reduce the pH of cationic guar to what?

          3. In what percentage of water do you mix your cationic guar?

          4. Is your sodium coco sulfate in powder form?

          5. How much sodium coco sulfate do you use, what is it initial pH and how much citric to reduce it’s pH.

          I have SLS powder but it needs very high amount of citric acid to adjust it’s pH. Like 4% solid citric acid to reduce pH of 5% SLS powder to 5 and this increases its price a lot.

  • abdullah

    Member
    March 14, 2024 at 12:56 am

    @ketchito @Paprik

    I did use the search bar and did everything advised there. Didn’t solve the problem.

    Actually the precipitation was in shampoo with SLES: CAPB 14:2 active surfactant pH 5.

    I did try different methods. Non of them worked.

    1. Adding cationic guar to 25% water, add citric acid, viscosity and clarity increased, mixed for 20 minutes, added CAPB, EDTA, SLES.

    2. Added SLES CAPB EDTA citric acid to water, pH 5, mixed cationic guar with 1% fragrance or 1% glycerin, then added it at the end and high shear mixing. Next day it has precipitated.

    It doesn’t have fish eye or anything

    šŸ˜”

    • abdullah

      Member
      March 14, 2024 at 12:59 am

      Could it that 20 minutes mixing is not enough for gum hydration and need more time?

    • ketchito

      Member
      March 14, 2024 at 6:31 am

      Could you use the 1st method, just using all the water formula to make the guar solution, and adding EDTA to that guar solution (before the citric acid)? Also, I assume you later use some base to increase pH up to 5, right? I’m asking since in your first post you mentioned a pH of 3.8 (or perhaps that was the pH of the guar solution and 5 was the final pH of the whole mixture).

      • abdullah

        Member
        March 14, 2024 at 8:46 pm

        I will try adding EDTA first and see.

        I have made different batches with different pH and all precipitated.

        1. Reduce the pH to with 0.05% lactic acid 85 solution, that was final pH too

        2. Reduces pH to 3.8 with 0.6% citric acid 50%, and at the end adjusted to pH 5 with 0.4% caustic soda 20%.

        3. Reduces pH to 3.8 with 0.6% citric acid 50%, and at the end adjusted to pH 5 with 0.3% SLS power dissolved in 3% water.

      • abdullah

        Member
        March 14, 2024 at 8:55 pm

        By all the water you mean at least how much water?

        My SLES is 23.3% active so i use 60% of it, 6.6% CAPB, 7% NACL 20% and only ~24% water is free at first for cationic guar

        • ketchito

          Member
          March 15, 2024 at 6:38 am

          I understand then you’re using all your water to disperse your guar HPTC. Are you using high mixing both for the addition (mix for around 20 min after adding it) and for when you add something to lower the pH (also mix for around 20 min at high speed; here the viscosity will increase a lot)?

          • abdullah

            Member
            March 16, 2024 at 1:33 am

            No, i was only mixing for 5 minutes before adding acid. What will 20 minutes mixing at this stage do?

            Also i was using high shear only that the end after adding all surfactants.

            Do you suggest i use high shear only after adding acid be before it too?

          • abdullah

            Member
            March 16, 2024 at 10:10 pm

            Made another batch with 20 min mix before adding acid and 20 minutes after. Still precipitated

      • abdullah

        Member
        March 16, 2024 at 1:42 am

        Aslo previously i was purchasing from another supplier, its color was aslo more yellow. This one i have purchased from a bigger manufacturer and at lower price, the color is also lighter, viscosity also a bit less.

        Could it be that this product is bad or have problem?

  • abdullah

    Member
    March 14, 2024 at 1:06 am

    I am not using NACL to increase viscosity In these samples to see separation faster. With higher viscosity precipitation takes afew days.

  • ketchito

    Member
    March 19, 2024 at 8:41 am

    On second thoughts, that resembles a bit coacervate formation, but that usually happens upon dilution since the amount of anionic surfactant solubilizes the coacervate. Did you compare the charge density of both guars?

    • abdullah

      Member
      March 19, 2024 at 10:58 pm

      Charge density not but viscosity is lower. or maybe because it is not hydrating properly or completely, that’s why viscosity is lower.

      I think cationic guar is not hydrating properly. Why? This I don’t know.

      Surprisingly on sample batch with this method is stable yet.

      1%AMD micro emulsion mixed with 8%NACL 20% solution and 12% water, cationic guar 0.2%, lactic acid 0.05% ,20min mix, CAPB, EDTA, SLES.

      14:2 SLES: CAPB active surfactants.

      When i made another batch the same method it precipitated.

      Any thoughts on why this one batch may have been stable?

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