Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating CATIONIC GUAR GUM SEPARATING AND CLUMPING

  • CATIONIC GUAR GUM SEPARATING AND CLUMPING

    Posted by Peta1 on March 16, 2023 at 1:46 pm

    Hi everyone, I would love a little help in fixing my shampoo. I can’t seem to get the cationic guar gum to not clump and not stay at the bottom of the bottle. I found another discussion on here with someone that had a similar problem. I followed the suggestions but that didn’t help unfortunately. I tried 2 different ways first I adjusted the PH of the guar using Citric Acid before mixing it into the surfactant phase, that did not work still clumped. Then I tried adjusting the PH below 5 of the surfactants before mixing in the guar, that did not work still separated and clumped to the bottom.

    8OZ

    Phase A

    Water- 44.375%

    Glycerin- 4%

    Cationic Guar- 0.4%

    Phase B

    Coco Betaine- 13.6%

    Glyceryl Oleate- 2%

    Almond Oil- 2%

    Phase C

    Otiphen plus preservative- 1%

    Fragrance-0.625%

    Citric Acid

    Peta1 replied 1 year, 2 months ago 4 Members · 25 Replies
  • 25 Replies
  • Peta1

    Member
    March 16, 2023 at 2:22 pm

    UPDATED LEFT OUT A SURFACTANT! Hi everyone, I would love a little help in fixing my shampoo. I can’t seem to get the cationic guar gum to not clump and not stay at the bottom of the bottle. I found another discussion on here with someone that had a similar problem. I followed the suggestions but that didn’t help unfortunately. I tried 2 different ways first I adjusted the PH of the guar using Citric Acid before mixing it into the surfactant phase, that did not work still clumped. Then I tried adjusting the PH below 5 of the surfactants before mixing in the guar, that did not work still separated and clumped to the bottom.

    8OZ

    Phase A

    Water- 44.375%

    Glycerin- 4%

    Cationic Guar- 0.4%

    Phase B

    Coco Betaine- 13.6%

    Decyl Glucoside 32%

    Glyceryl Oleate- 2%

    Almond Oil- 2%

    Phase C

    Otiphen plus preservative- 1%

    Fragrance-0.625%

    Citric Acid

  • Abdullah

    Member
    March 16, 2023 at 7:56 pm

    What is the pH of 1% guar gum solution?

    If it is below 7, this type needa high shear mixing and after 15 minutes it will hydrate.

    If it is 8-10 then mix in water very easily before reducing pH.

    • Peta1

      Member
      March 17, 2023 at 7:29 pm

      The PH of the guar was different each time I tested. I tried with PH below 7 and then above 8. I also adjusted the water to be acidic before adding the guar to the water. And I also tried adjusting the PH of the surfactant phase to see if that was the issue. Nothing seems to be working guar gum seems very hard to work with.

  • Peta1

    Member
    March 16, 2023 at 8:55 pm

    The PH of the guar was different each time I tested. I tried with PH below 7 and then above 8. I also adjusted the water to be acidic before adding the guar to the water. And I also tried adjusting the PH of the surfactant phase to see if that was the issue. Nothing seems to be working guar gum seems very hard to work with.

  • MelindaNicole

    Member
    March 17, 2023 at 7:15 pm

    I would get rid of the almond oil.

    I usually get a vortex going with my water, then add the cationic gaur, and let it mix for a couple of minutes, then add lactic or citric acid to get to ph between 5-7 and then add my surfactants. I had a lot of issues with other gums when it came to surfactant systems, but cationic gaur always works out for me.

    • Peta1

      Member
      March 17, 2023 at 7:28 pm

      Thank you! I also tried removing the Almond Oil today but I got the same results with the guar gum separating and clumping. It actually floated to the top rather than the bottom. Do you think its the tool I am using to mix the guar gum in? I am using an emulsion blender. I am wondering if the guar is not being mixed at a high enough speed.

      • MelindaNicole

        Member
        March 17, 2023 at 7:48 pm

        You don’t need high sheer, but you need to wet and disperse the gum. I use an overhead stirrer or magnetic stirrer. You should be able to stir it by hand and make sure it’s wetted and dispersed before adjusting the pH. You can try to slurry the cationic gaur with glycerin or propylene glycol and then add it to the water and mix and then adjust the pH. I would get rid of the glycerol oleate and the almond oil and try making it again. Make sure all your surfactants are in the pH range it needs to be.

        • Peta1

          Member
          March 17, 2023 at 7:53 pm

          Thank you! So can the formula be stable without the glycerol oleate?

          • MelindaNicole

            Member
            March 17, 2023 at 8:24 pm

            Yes, as long as you aren’t using the almond oil. Glycerol oleate is a good re-fating agent, which you should be able to use in this but when you are trying to figure out what the issue is, it’s easier to figure it out. Fragrance can also be the issue because they are so complex. Make it without the fragrance and if it stays stable you can then add it and see if it stays stable.

            • Peta1

              Member
              March 17, 2023 at 8:26 pm

              Thank you! I will be trying it now.

            • Peta1

              Member
              March 19, 2023 at 8:32 am

              Hi there, unfortunately the Cationic guar gum still landed to the bottom. I even took out the fragrance and made just a simple recipe. I tried your way plus another, I added the water, glycerin and the surfactants together. Then made sure the PH was 5.9 before adding the guar. Then while mixing added the preservative. Allowed to rest for a few hours and guar still separated to the bottom. I am using Cationic Guar from Lotions Crafter “Ashland” do you think I should try a different brand?

              Water 50.5%

              Glycerin 4%

              Decyl Glucoside 15%

              Coco Betain 29%

              Cationic Guar Gum 0.5%

              Preservative 1%

            • MelindaNicole

              Member
              March 20, 2023 at 11:39 am

              Are the particles completely dissolved before adding the surfactants? Try just doing water and the gum and adjust the pH with lactic acid or citric acid to see if. Usually when you are seeing clumping or separation it’s to do with the gum not hydrating fully.

              I was looking through my formulas and on average I use between .8-1% but I also use surfs that can be thickened with salt. I believe 1.5% is the highest on usage, so you can add more if it’s too thin.

              I know how frustrating it can be working with surfactant systems and gums, I have had the same issue with regular guar. Are you using coco betaine or cocamidopropyl betaine? With your percentage of the surfactants, is that the amount or is that the active surfactant mater?

              I’m not sure if you have already looked at the formulation guide from Ashland that’s on lotion crafters site. I will had a screenshot of it.

            • Peta1

              Member
              March 20, 2023 at 5:06 pm

              Thank you for replying. Yes I was using the info on lotions crafters site. I am also using cocamidopropyl Betaine. It is definitely frustrating I am on the verge of changing my formula and omitting the Guar Gum. I really like it because it is very conditioning. I am also using the recommended usage rate of each surfactant if that’s what you meant. I was told maybe to try taking out the Glucoside because the react negatively with surfactants that have alot of NaCi like cocamidopropyl Betaine. So that’s my next try.

            • MelindaNicole

              Member
              March 20, 2023 at 7:16 pm

              That’s great advice, I didn’t know that non- ionics can only handle a certain amount of NaCl. For the most part I use anionics and amphoterics in my surfactants systems. I really like using Sodium Lauroyl Istethionate(SLI) or Sodium Cocoyl Methyl Isethionate(SCMI) in my shampoos and body washes, it’s easier to use than SCI, with these you want to use tetrasodium edta. I’d still use a chelator in your formula, regardless. Disodium Laureth Sulfosuccinate(DLS) and AOS 40 are a couple others that I love. LSB was also my favorite, but they quit making. I usually do a blend of these with CAPB (cocamidopropyl betaine). Hopefully by switching out the non-ionic for an anionic it will fix the issue.

            • Peta1

              Member
              March 20, 2023 at 7:22 pm

              Thank you! I will research these surfactants. If this works I will start sticking to anionics and amphoteric surfactants. I will keep you posted on what works.

            • MelindaNicole

              Member
              March 20, 2023 at 7:21 pm

              What I meant about the percentage, is if you are counting the mixture of the surfactant and water, which is the way it comes, or are you just putting down the active amount of surfactant down next to the surfactants and putting the water in the mixture into your water percentage. Does that make sense? When I write my formulas I put the whole surfactant mixture, but I have the active matter calculated that I note next to it.

            • Peta1

              Member
              March 21, 2023 at 10:05 am

              It worked finally! It was definitely the NaCi affecting the Glucoside Surfactant. I am relieved! Thanks for your help as well. Regarding your last question, I normally focus on the usage rate but I need to start focusing on both.

            • MelindaNicole

              Member
              March 21, 2023 at 2:56 pm

              Yay! I’m glad it worked out! I use Jane Barber’s surfactant calculator which is wonderful along with everything else she has on Making skincare. https://makingskincare.com/surfactant-calculator/

            • Peta1

              Member
              March 21, 2023 at 4:47 pm

              I will definitely check her out! Thanks again 😉

  • ketchito

    Member
    March 20, 2023 at 6:53 am

    Do you have a picture of what you’re seeing?

    • Peta1

      Member
      March 20, 2023 at 9:50 am

      Yes I have pictures a few aren’t very clear. The ones that aren’t clear the guar is floating around. And each one feels like water, they do not feel thick. I even tried one at 1% which is the one you can see clearly. I tried at PH 4.5, PH 6, PH 4.3 they all feel like water.

  • ketchito

    Member
    March 20, 2023 at 4:10 pm

    Not sure if what you see at the bottom is your Cationic guar. Keep in mind that CAPB can have up to 5-7% of NaCl, and you’re using quite a lot of CAPB. Non-ionics like Glucosides have certain level of tolerance towards ionic salts, maybe that’s what’s happening. Could you replace your Glucoside for an anionic surfactant (like a sulfonate or any other anionic?)

    • Peta1

      Member
      March 20, 2023 at 5:09 pm

      Thank you I will try that. I will start by using the cocamidopropyl Betaine on its own and see how it behaves. If it reacts better without the decyl glucoside I will purchase another anionic surfactant.

    • Peta1

      Member
      March 21, 2023 at 10:03 am

      It worked!!! Thank you so much! No one could figure it out but you! I appreciate it! The only thing that is in it are tiny bubbles. But am sure it will go away. So now I will look into surfactants that are not glucosides.

      • ketchito

        Member
        March 21, 2023 at 1:36 pm

        I’m glad it worked! Glucosides are nice, but they don’t work the same in all systems. Good luck.

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