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Repair Shampoo
Hi All
i am formulating a sulfate free silicone free shampoo for for extremely damaged hair .. I getting a very nice shampoo with great sensory feel BUT feel
like getting some fizzBelow is the formula (w/w
water balance
aculyn 28 - 5%Mirataine BET C-30 —— 25%
Miranol Ultra C-32 — 20%Hostapon SG —- 10%Tilamar Quat 2240
DL Panthenol 75L
Phytantriol
Calcium D Panthetonate
Pentavitin
hydrolized Soy Protein
— total to around 2%Guar 0.5% (in Glycerine 3%)euperlan AP3000 - 6%
perfume 1% in Eumelgen 2.4%
Preservative 0.8%Dow 1501 Silicone 4%Antil 171 to thicken 2.5%Ph down to 4.5Getting great foam and great sensory feel but with all these conditioning agents still getting some frizz in hair and lacking in shineis this the surfactant package ?
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24 Replies
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@Ehsaale Personally, I don’t like much the type of foam that Betaine gives without an anionic. I’d still add an anionic like a sulfonate, taurate or sulfosuccinate.
Guar HPTC could be a bit too much at 0.5%, not only because of excessive deposition (if you don’t have an anionic, Betaine won’t be able to remove too much of the Guar deposited, especially in the absence of sodium chloride….and also, you could have an issue with gelling over time). Be sure to fully hydrate your Guar HPTC lowering down the pH and mixing for enough time.
Btw, I see in your formula DC 1501, but you mention it’s a silicone free shampoo. Did I get something wrong? If you want to put a silicone, DC 1501 won’t be my first choice, since most of the ingredient (which is Cyclopentasiloxane) would be rinsed away.
What’s your preservative?
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@ketchito how does NACL effect cationic guar in a Shampoo with SLES/CAPB?
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@Abdullah NaCl as well as orher electrolytes help control the adsorption/desorption of ionic substabces on hair. In the case of Guar HPTC, it helps with the desorption, making it easier for surfactants to remove most of it.
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@ketchito thanks
Does is reduce adsorption from Shampoo too or no effect on that? -
@Abdullah It depends. If the cationic polymer adrosbs in its pure state (no coacervate), then salt might reduce its deposition. But if you have a coacervate, salt might actually increase it.
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@ketchito my shampoos has SLES/CAPB at 3:1 and 7:1 ratios. So it may have coacervate. I use 5% nacl
By desorption, do you mean removing polymer that is already attached to hair from previous shampoo with cationic guar?
Also how does NACL effect PQ10 in shampoo with SLES/CAPB in above ratios?
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@Abdullah If PQ-10 have deposited as a coacervate, NaCl would help remove it in the next wash, although not as much as if PQ-10 had deposited alone.
By desorption, yes…I meant from hair, once the polymer had already deposited.
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@ketchito can you tell me where can i learn more about interactions of NACL vs polymers?
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@Abdullah I recommendo you to search and download papers on the matter. There are plenty, from the Journal of Cosmetic Science, Langmuir, el Journal of detergents and surfactants, Polymers, etc. Try searching through Google Scholar.
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@Abdullah You can actually start with this book: Principles of Polymer Science and Technology in Cosmetics and Personal Care.
ULprospector also has an article about it (although only related to coacervates): https://knowledge.ulprospector.com/638/pcc-understanding-deposition-rinse-products/
Now, here are some interestin papers (the first ons is my favorite on the topic):
1) http://www.scientificspectator.com/documents/surfactant%20spectator/surfactant%20interaction/2006%20Coacervate.pdf
2) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9292326/
3) https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jos/68/6/68_ess19081/_pdf
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ketchito said:@Abdullah You can actually start with this book: Principles of Polymer Science and Technology in Cosmetics and Personal Care.
ULprospector also has an article about it (although only related to coacervates): https://knowledge.ulprospector.com/638/pcc-understanding-deposition-rinse-products/
Now, here are some interestin papers (the first ons is my favorite on the topic):
1) http://www.scientificspectator.com/documents/surfactant%20spectator/surfactant%20interaction/2006%20Coacervate.pdf
2) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9292326/
3) https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jos/68/6/68_ess19081/_pdf
Thanks a lot
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@ketchito in the ulprospector Link, what is your opinion about these two
Other factors that effect deposition
1. Coacervate rheology
is it the actual product viscosity or product viscosity during shampooing when coacervate is formed?
2. Electrolytes reduce the amount of coacervate.
doesnt it mean reduced deposition? -
Abdullah said:@ketchito in the ulprospector Link, what is your opinion about these two
Other factors that effect deposition
1. Coacervate rheology
is it the actual product viscosity or product viscosity during shampooing when coacervate is formed?
2. Electrolytes reduce the amount of coacervate.
doesnt it mean reduced deposition?1) that’s a good question; I believe it’s products viscosity, since, if the product is too viscous, it’d be hard to dilute it so coacervate is formed before you rinsed-off the product
2) both, ’cause if you reduce the amount of coacervate formed (electrolytes interfere with anionic surfactant-cationic polymer electrostatic interaction), then there’s less coacervate being deposited
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ketchito said:Abdullah said:@ketchito in the ulprospector Link, what is your opinion about these two
Other factors that effect deposition
1. Coacervate rheology
is it the actual product viscosity or product viscosity during shampooing when coacervate is formed?
2. Electrolytes reduce the amount of coacervate.
doesnt it mean reduced deposition?1) that’s a good question; I believe it’s products viscosity, since, if the product is too viscous, it’d be hard to dilute it so coacervate is formed before you rinsed-off the product
So higher product viscosity is better to form coacervate, correct?
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@Abdullah @ketchito
Do not you think that anionic surfactants lower than 9% as an active material is un acceptable as a shampoo?
Also 1501 will definitely separated,
as a suggestion i am adding cetrimonium chloride combined with SLES in the shampoo some how is good on hair but not perfect, I am disappointed with shampoos becuase I tried everything to make shampoo for soft and smooth effect on hair but all the time failedwaiting any suggestion
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Robert said:@Abdullah @ketchito
Do not you think that anionic surfactants lower than 9% as an active material is un acceptable as a shampoo?
Also 1501 will definitely separated,
as a suggestion i am adding cetrimonium chloride combined with SLES in the shampoo some how is good on hair but not perfect, I am disappointed with shampoos becuase I tried everything to make shampoo for soft and smooth effect on hair but all the time failedwaiting any suggestion
I don’t think so
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Robert said:@Abdullah @ketchito
Do not you think that anionic surfactants lower than 9% as an active material is un acceptable as a shampoo?
Also 1501 will definitely separated,
as a suggestion i am adding cetrimonium chloride combined with SLES in the shampoo some how is good on hair but not perfect, I am disappointed with shampoos becuase I tried everything to make shampoo for soft and smooth effect on hair but all the time failedwaiting any suggestion
@Robert You just need to add a cationic polymer and silicone(s) to your shampoo, and play around the percentages till you get the effect you want.
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ketchito said:Robert said:@Abdullah @ketchito
Do not you think that anionic surfactants lower than 9% as an active material is un acceptable as a shampoo?
Also 1501 will definitely separated,
as a suggestion i am adding cetrimonium chloride combined with SLES in the shampoo some how is good on hair but not perfect, I am disappointed with shampoos becuase I tried everything to make shampoo for soft and smooth effect on hair but all the time failedwaiting any suggestion
@Robert You just need to add a cationic polymer and silicone(s) to your shampoo, and play around the percentages till you get the effect you want.
@ketchito playing percentages meaning repetitive experimentation, am I right? But can’t understand you all are well known formulator so is it difficult for you too to fix one’s %?
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drjayseesunish said:ketchito said:Robert said:@Abdullah @ketchito
Do not you think that anionic surfactants lower than 9% as an active material is un acceptable as a shampoo?
Also 1501 will definitely separated,
as a suggestion i am adding cetrimonium chloride combined with SLES in the shampoo some how is good on hair but not perfect, I am disappointed with shampoos becuase I tried everything to make shampoo for soft and smooth effect on hair but all the time failedwaiting any suggestion
@Robert You just need to add a cationic polymer and silicone(s) to your shampoo, and play around the percentages till you get the effect you want.
@ketchito playing percentages meaning repetitive experimentation, am I right? But can’t understand you all are well known formulator so is it difficult for you too to fix one’s %?
@ketchito please tell me a universal polymers to thicken cleaning products?
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drjayseesunish said:ketchito said:Robert said:@Abdullah @ketchito
Do not you think that anionic surfactants lower than 9% as an active material is un acceptable as a shampoo?
Also 1501 will definitely separated,
as a suggestion i am adding cetrimonium chloride combined with SLES in the shampoo some how is good on hair but not perfect, I am disappointed with shampoos becuase I tried everything to make shampoo for soft and smooth effect on hair but all the time failedwaiting any suggestion
@Robert You just need to add a cationic polymer and silicone(s) to your shampoo, and play around the percentages till you get the effect you want.
@ketchito playing percentages meaning repetitive experimentation, am I right? But can’t understand you all are well known formulator so is it difficult for you too to fix one’s %?
@drjayseesunish Those levels will depend on your consumer needs, silicones you’re using, etc. That’s why there’s not a fixed amount. You could start for instance, with 0.2% of Cationic guar, and 1% of dimethicone fluid (350 or 1000 cst). This is just a starting point, those levels could be incteased, you could choose to add a silicone gum, replace the cationic polymer, etc. You’ll also need to add a suspending agent like a carbomer.
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drjayseesunish said:drjayseesunish said:ketchito said:Robert said:@Abdullah @ketchito
Do not you think that anionic surfactants lower than 9% as an active material is un acceptable as a shampoo?
Also 1501 will definitely separated,
as a suggestion i am adding cetrimonium chloride combined with SLES in the shampoo some how is good on hair but not perfect, I am disappointed with shampoos becuase I tried everything to make shampoo for soft and smooth effect on hair but all the time failedwaiting any suggestion
@Robert You just need to add a cationic polymer and silicone(s) to your shampoo, and play around the percentages till you get the effect you want.
@ketchito playing percentages meaning repetitive experimentation, am I right? But can’t understand you all are well known formulator so is it difficult for you too to fix one’s %?
@ketchito please tell me a universal polymers to thicken cleaning products?
HEC and HMPC are good options.
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ketchito said:drjayseesunish said:drjayseesunish said:ketchito said:Robert said:@Abdullah @ketchito
Do not you think that anionic surfactants lower than 9% as an active material is un acceptable as a shampoo?
Also 1501 will definitely separated,
as a suggestion i am adding cetrimonium chloride combined with SLES in the shampoo some how is good on hair but not perfect, I am disappointed with shampoos becuase I tried everything to make shampoo for soft and smooth effect on hair but all the time failedwaiting any suggestion
@Robert You just need to add a cationic polymer and silicone(s) to your shampoo, and play around the percentages till you get the effect you want.
@ketchito playing percentages meaning repetitive experimentation, am I right? But can’t understand you all are well known formulator so is it difficult for you too to fix one’s %?
@ketchito please tell me a universal polymers to thicken cleaning products?
HEC and HMPC are good options.
@ketchito Thanks! After comparing HECand CMC, I came to know CMC sodium salt is good option as soluble in hot and cold medium easily but it didn’t give much thickening to my liquid detergent as I expected.
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