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Deep Conditioner Experiment, Gross Feel!
Ok so I made a Conditioner, it was meant to be more of a “Deep Conditioner” hence the high oil content…Sure enough it may have been a partial fail.
In the shower it just felt so gross on the hair. Super occlusive. Felt like I had build up almost waxy…It was slick and honestly just not “enjoyable”. Having said that, now with my hair dry it feels nice and soft…Heres the formula:
Water- 68.10%
Glycerin- 5%
Xantham Gum- .30%Varisoft EQ- 3%
Montanov 68 MB- 2%
Herb Infused Olive oil- 10%
Hemp Seed Oil- 5%
Castor Oil- 3%
Shea Butter- 2%Tocopheral- .10%
Liquid Germal Plus- .50%
Fragrance- 1% -
25 Replies
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Ditch castor oil, that stuff feels terrible. Depending on hair type, reduce hemp seed oil and/or shea butter… but honestly, I’d safe the money and use the oils (given that my hair would tolerate them) and use them as a leaf in and not under the shower. You could add maybe 0.5-1% oils, more seems unreasonable and ‘kills’ the emulsifiers.You could add some more fatty alcohol, like 20% instead of 2%
.There is no reason why you should add glycerol to a rinse off. -
it doesn’t help that your xanthan gum is anionic, and Varisoft EQ is cationic
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@Pharma I agree I thought the castor was overkill. Honestly I have it sitting around and am trying to find ways to use it haha. I planned on formulating a scalp treatment so I will keep it for that.
So use the oils more for a leave on products and not a wash off conditioner? So it was meant as a “deep conditioner treatment” would that make a difference though as to upping the oil? Im using an herbal infused oil so I just wanted to feel like the product, the potential customer was benefiting from the “herbal” aspect.
Ok I will def up my fatty alcohol! thanks! might try this today. I was going to do a second attempt at a lotion but might do this instead.
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I have tried desperately to include castor in my products….it is YUK at even .5%. Always got kicked out of the formulas in the end.
If you are desperate to get the word ‘castor’ on your label…. see if you can make this ingredient fit: Cetyl Ricinoleate.
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@Graillotion not so much a label thing more so a “I have it and need to use it in something” haha a waste concern I guess.
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I think what you have is more of an oil heavy leave in Conditioning mask. For conditioners which get rinsed off quiclky, Natrasil is a great addition instead of something like Olive Oil. It should have what you are looking for in terms of Natural, Ecocert etc. You really do not need that many oils or butters even for a leave in mask.
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@Cafe33 thanks so much I will look into natrasil
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Not to mention the olive oil, herb infused or otherwise, will be loved to death by the Malessezzia and give you a dandruff problem.
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PeaceLoveNaturals said:I will look into natrasil
FYI…that is what LotionCrafters calls: Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate, Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables
Many repackers sell it…under different names…If buying more than just a dab… Formulators sample shop has the best price (amongst the re-packers)…and right now… until they get their website updated…have the best shipping deal… ANY weight….$8.99…. Hehehe…you can imagine I (who live in Hawaii)….have been loading up!!! (10 KG of Isoamyl Laurate shipped to the middle of the pacific for $8.99… almost made it as cost effective as buying from the mfg…and paying $110.00 in shipping.)
FSS calls it: Fision EcoSil
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@Graillotion
Oh shnap I need to go on there now haha -
@Belassi I didnt know that about Olive oil…very interesting. Hmm then what to do with a gallon of herbal infused Olive oil? hahaha
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You could always use it for cooking? Very healthy! I never use it in anything, because there are so many better ingredients for cosmetics.
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@Belassi Thanks, all Ive ever known is it being great for hair and scalp. Maybe not something thats great for formulating?
Idk but as a treatment its amazing really and healing. But Im also coming from and herbalist hippi dippi point of view and not so much a science/formulating point of view.
How companies formulate with oils, I have no clue …so its all trial and error for me right now. I can only guess what % is being use by looking at the ingredients list.
I will see an Indie brand with 5 oils and 2 butters in their conditioner ingredients, but when I use it, it doesnt feel heavy or too thick. I am white/european too so I dont have a courser hair type that tend to do very well with oils and butters. So how are these brands formulating with it? .10%, .25% each oil? Seems silly really to have a list of exotic butter and oils and only use 2% as a whole. But hey it works for them I guess. I have to rethink my whole “branding” concept.
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PeaceLoveNaturals said:@Belassi I didnt know that about Olive oil…very interesting. Hmm then what to do with a gallon of herbal infused Olive oil? hahaha
Make salad dressing of course!
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I will see an Indie brand with 5 oils and 2 butters in their conditioner ingredients, but when I use it, it doesnt feel heavy or too thick.
Just a couple drops of each! As you know…once you get below the 1% line, you can list in any order you like…. so likely they are measured in drops….but appear through creative listing…as much higher.
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these look like they may be more then 1% but now Im wondering. Here take a look and see what you think? There are some Essential Oils, I havent highlighted those. I wonder because BTMS is so low on the list. I would asume more then 1% would be used in a leave in conditioner? And I have this leave in conditioner. Its moisturizing but not at all heavy like you would think.
Leave In Conditioner from and Indie Brand: Water, Cetearyl Alcohol, Simmondsia Chinesis (Jojoba) Seed oil, Ethylhexyl Palmitate, Olea Europe (Olive) Fruit oil, Glyceryl Stearate, Astrocaryum Murumuru Seed butter, Argania Spinosa Kernel oil (Argan oil), Butyrospermum Parkii (Shea) Butter, Persea Gratissima (Avocado) Oil, Rosa Centifolia (Rose oil), Citrus Aurantium Amara (Neroli) Oil, Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E), Behentrimonium Methosulfate, Cetrimonium Chloride, Biotin, *Nigella Sativa (Virgin Black Cumin) Oil, Trigonella Foenum-Graecum (Fenugreek) Seed Extract, Phenoxyethanol, Ethylhexylglycerin, Fragrance (Phthalate Free).
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Here take a look and see what you think?
- Immediately I see olive oil I think, “People who do not know what they are doing.” -
They could be using as little as 2% of BTMS-25. Assuming it is at 2%, the amount of Cetearyl alcohol would be around 1.5% and BTMS would be at 0.5%. Cetrimonium Chloride is the main “detangler” here. It can work very well with as little as 0.3%.
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PeaceLoveNaturals said:
Why is it when you say this…I immediately think….they don’t know how to make a correct label? How many small brands have we seen….that just put the ingredients in the order they think is most appealing?
You know how little Vitamin E goes into a product…and it is ahead of the Behentrimonium Methosulfate? Argan oil is expensive…so probaly measured in drops. -
Cafe33 said:They could be using as little as 2% of BTMS-25. Assuming it is at 2%, the amount of Cetearyl alcohol would be around 1.5% and BTMS would be at 0.5%. Cetrimonium Chloride is the main “detangler” here. It can work very well with as little as 0.3%.
if their using BTMS 25 at 2% then wouldnt BTMS be up at the top not below? And these ingredient would really work well at such low %? I assumed cetearyl would be much more then 1.5%…..so what would you assume the total emulsifier to oil there is?
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Graillotion said:PeaceLoveNaturals said:
Why is it when you say this…I immediately think….they don’t know how to make a correct label? How many small brands have we seen….that just put the ingredients in the order they think is most appealing?
You know how little Vitamin E goes into a product…and it is ahead of the Behentrimonium Methosulfate? Argan oil is expensive…so probaly measured in drops. you think the labeling may be wrong? their quite a popular indie brand…been in magazines and such….I am just trying to figure out really how much or little oil/butter I should put into a formula and beginner me is looking at this label thinking dang theres a lot of oil and butter here! lol hence my thought process going into my bad first attempt at a conditioner. lol
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BTMS-25 is a combination of cetearyl alcohol and behentrimonium methosulfate, 75% and 25% respectively. It is a great addition to a conditioner but very expensive. Cetrimonium chloride is inexpensive.
One thing I learned on this forum is that the primary function of fancy oils is to enhance a marketing story. I also went down the path you are going down.
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Agreed….everything I read about oils in haircare…..Label enhancers.
You don’t have to be an unknown…to make a bad label.
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@Cafe33 thanks so much! its always humbling to be in a place of utter ignorance lol. Im genuinely learning though and its so helpful to be apart of this forum.
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Graillotion said:Agreed….everything I read about oils in haircare…..Label enhancers.
You don’t have to be an unknown…to make a bad label.
lol true that
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