ingredients

Hello i wanted to see if i could use Phenoxyethanol with fractionated coconut oil and kaolin clay to make blushes? i wanted to use a preservative for mold and a ingredient that wont cause the blush to oxidize. i hope i can use those together and be FDA approved. 

Comments

  • The FDA does not approve blushes or any cosmetic for that matter.

    Yes, you could use phenoxyethanol in that system. Whether it works or not is a different story.
  • Now it says 1% of phenoxyethol can be used but brcabec I make batches at a time does this mean individual? Or as a whole batch? 
  • Also is Phenoxyethol a mineral? I wanted all mineral ingredients. 
  • No it's not. Maybe you should study the ingredients you want to work with before you even think about using them.
    https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/2-phenoxyethanol#section=Top

    Phenoxyethanol isn't strong on mold btw.
  • what about Tinosan?
    Dr. Catherine Pratt
    (B.Sc with HONS I , Ph.D Analytical/Organic Chem and Microbiology), Cosmetic Chemistry IPCS)
  • Quick question.  Why would you add a preservative to a anhydrous system?  Are you trying to ensure mold prevention should the blush come into contact with water? Or are there other water soluble ingredients to be included?  Just trying to learn.  Thanks!
  • @IGChemist I'm am using water while mixing. So that's why I want a preservative in it. 
  • @Doreen I have researched on all ingredients. I wanted to get more information about Phenoxyethanol. But thank u for ur attachment

  • @Mynkcosmo, with all due respect, if you ask whether phenoxyethanol is a mineral, you haven't done sufficient research into the ingredients you want to use. Regardless, if you want it to be all mineral, then you can't use MCT.

    You are relatively restricted in your choice of preservatives when having an anhydrous formula I would suggest using parabens which case parabens are quite useful. Otherwise, add a fungicidal compound to the phenoxyethanol.
    Dabbling Formulator, cosmetic safety assessor, and experienced in claim substantiation & EU regulatory affairs.
  • Also is Phenoxyethanol a mineral? I wanted all mineral ingredients.

    Never allow Marketing (as in I want all minerals) to drive the Formulation as such a primary focus. There are ingredients that are required to make these type Formulations effective and well received by the Market. Science first. You can set a rough guideline for raw materials, especially in certain niche markets, BUT never make the Science bow to Marketing. A poor performing product that meets some rigid Marketing will fail. 

    A customer will buy a good product that meets a natural standard. They will not buy a restrictively "natural" product that does not perform well.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications.
  • @Sibech it's okay. I should have reworded it differently because I do know that phenoxyethanol isn't a mineral. I might be reading wrong info because it says if using less of 1% of it, you can claim that the ingredients you are using with Phenoxyethanol are minerals. So I figured I asked  even though I knew it wasn't I just should have been more specific about why I asked that it's a mineral. 

  • @mynkcosmo: Depending on where you are you are not allowed use phenoxyethanol at more than 1% anyway (it's the legal maximum in the EU). If you fear the MCT will oxidize, then add appropriate antioxidants - tocopherol is often sufficient for a simple lipid phase.

    If you added compounds that may catalyze (speed up) oxidation, then BHT works better, however, if you're scared of it I have heard positive things about Pentaerythrityl Tetra-di-t-butyl Hydroxyhydrocinnamate - I haven't used it and can't say first hand how it performs.

    I presume you are your own marketing department so here are my 2 cents -
    Now you don't mention what colours you intend to use, but I will assume iron oxides. it is instead of "without parabens, "nasties" and so forth" it is a plague in the cosmetic industry to use scaremongering tactics anyway.

    don't bother calling it "All mineral blush" just call it a mineral blush and tout the positives of how good (after you tested it and proved it to be great) for as @Microformulation said: "A customer will buy a good product that meets a natural standard. They will not buy a restrictively "natural" product that does not perform well."
    Dabbling Formulator, cosmetic safety assessor, and experienced in claim substantiation & EU regulatory affairs.
  • @Doreen phenoxyethonal is a great preservative, I used to use it all the time, I believe it was Euxyl 9010, is mixed with ethylhexylglycerin that apparently makes the bugs slide off it.
    Dr. Catherine Pratt
    (B.Sc with HONS I , Ph.D Analytical/Organic Chem and Microbiology), Cosmetic Chemistry IPCS)
  • Thank you so much for that. @Sibech. I will definitely just say it's a blush instead of saying anything natural. I have been selling them and feedback is wonderful . But I also just ran into a problem two days ago. I have been making and selling these blushes for a few years now and two days ago I made a batch and as they started to dry the rim of the pan was turning a dark red and the color of the blush is a light coral color(highlighter)  so I don't know what happened as this hasn't happened before nor did I do anything different. It looked as if it oxized but I don't know what I did wrong. Do u know why that happened? Or what causes that?
  • @Sibech I don't agree, call it what you want @Mynkcosmo and trust me natural/organic is not going away. I was trained traditionally but natural is coming, look at the stock markets. And as for marketing, if you have a product that you know is not going to work that well, well thats when you can say all the BS you like, thats what marketing is all about isn't it? I am married to one and he is a total BS! Have you ever done marketing or branding @Sibech Women want something that says its good for you, has a nice pretty picture and nice packaging that's it!
    Dr. Catherine Pratt
    (B.Sc with HONS I , Ph.D Analytical/Organic Chem and Microbiology), Cosmetic Chemistry IPCS)
  • edited July 10
    @Mynkcosmo Did you change supplier (or did your supplier change supplier) anything for that batch - and if you made it a second time afterwards, did it happen again?

    @Dr Catherine Pratt You are welcome to disagree, that is what debate is all about.

    I think you're right that natural is unlikely to be going away, especially as there are no legal definitions of natural cosmetics - granted most people wouldn't call silicones natural but they are crafted from a naturally abundant material so why not?

    All jokes aside, the main reason I believe you are right is that people still adhere to the ridiculous notion "If you can't pronounce it, it can't be good for you" and with the current level of misinformation available to the mass market, "natural" for the sake of "natural" is certain to remain for the long haul.

    You mention that marketing BS is made for inferior products and frankly, in the EU at best it's unethical (fearmongering for sales) and at the worst it's illegal (False marketing eg. "Chemical Free" and from July 2019, in the EU denigrating other products and includes "Free from Parabens" for example). Furthermore fearmongering of a single ingredient also spreads like a weed to make people believe every product containing it is horrible possibly even dangerous for you.

    And honestly, I think you are demeaning to women all over the world with your statement "Women want something that says its good for you, has a nice pretty picture and nice packaging that's it!".

    People what something that says it's good for you and more importantly makes them feel good. Actually, that is what cosmetics are all about, keeping your skin healthy and making you feel good and comfortable in that skin.


    Dabbling Formulator, cosmetic safety assessor, and experienced in claim substantiation & EU regulatory affairs.
  • edited July 10
    @Sibech First, kudos on this statement touting wisdom we should all follow "@Dr Catherine Pratt You are welcome to disagree, that is what debate is all about. " We need to not lose sight of that fact.

    As far as "Natural" goes, the markets that we are dealing with are evolving. In 2008 I was doing a lot of Whole Foods work and I mean a LOT. At that point, their buyers were more concerned with meeting a market model that was based upon the naturalistic fallacy and chemophobia. I can recall relatively few instances where a prototype was rejected for performance (less than a handful) and we were subjected to somewhat less scrutiny in regards to raw material costs. It was "natural" above all.

    Since that time, the larger "natural" markets have evolved. "Natural" is still an issue although there has been a movement to qualify what this means and to address a natural standard. I am fortunate to have developed some friendships with people at Whole Foods at the corporate level in Personal Care and they relay the pressure that they have faced to "evolve" the "natural" market in their stores. No longer is "natural" the only aspect, but the gaps in price and performance are narrowing rapidly. Cost and performance are now issues.

    A Customer will now accept a slight difference in the performance with a "natural" product vice a traditional product, but not nearly what it was in years past. No longer will they pay 100% more just because it is "natural."

    A good naturally compliant product is like a three-legged stool (natural marketing story, price, and performance). The amount of "wobble" (imbalance in the 3 factors) has steadily decreased and will continue to do so. This is the concept that we must keep in mind if working with these products, especially if you want to get into the US mainstream market and to breach out of the "Farmers Market/Craft Market."

    Again, I will steal freely from Sibech, "You are welcome to disagree, that is what debate is all about." My Statements are derived from being immersed in this market for numerous years and a track record of assisting clients in getting "naturally compliant" products into the Market. I am seeing that the clients that evolve (especially in taking on a LOHAS Marketing Model) are thriving. I have a client that grossed a million last year in just 3 years after evolving their line. She made honest and supportable claims, met them with the Formulation and promoted them in Social Media. In the end, there was no reason to rest on fear or poor science.

     

    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications.
  • Hey @Sibech and @Microformulation. Yes of course we are debating and from other sides of the world. I am impressed that in the EU you cannot claim false advertising, I cannot believe it, I mean I don't know what my husband is going to do? Since the internet is not regulated as well that has thrown another spanner in the works, but the advertisers play on words is remarkable and believable. I watch him do it! Also there is a difference between 'natural' and 'organic', natural does not command the same preference anymore. If it does not say organic then it is not worth it. I live in a very organic area. It is very interesting. My neighbor and I were going to do a cream together. She is the organic one, she is totally opposite to me and this @Sibech is where I got the women's thoughts on buying cosmetics. She said to me, its all about the packaging and the bottle, doesn't matter whether you put dung in there they will buy it. This is from a 30 something professional Chiropractor, I was really offended. I said, but don't you want repeat customers? then we could not agree on a name. Maybe it was a generation thing, but now she if left with no chemist to formulate for her and as she said she tried it so many times. So maybe you don't just put dung in there. I hope Australia does change and it sounds like the EU is going really forward with this? I thought that the aussie regulations were strict, but now its nothing like it! Sorry if I sounded like I was putting women down, but that is what the advertisers think when they are branding a cosmetic and the worst thing is the women go for it! I am looking forward to see what comes of the EU regulations. @microformulation ; would know that it is actually quite hard to formulate naturally as every product has its nuances.Thank you for enlightening me on what is happening over there. I would love to know more!
    Dr. Catherine Pratt
    (B.Sc with HONS I , Ph.D Analytical/Organic Chem and Microbiology), Cosmetic Chemistry IPCS)
  • edited July 10
    IN the US, the term "Organic" in regards to the Cosmetic Market is limited to products that have been certified by the USDA NOP Cosmetic program. Unlike "natural" it has a legal and enforceable definition. Hence, we can't use "organic" as such a broad and marketing driven term. Semantics, but critical in the US Markets.

    The US Market is evolving and I am not in anyway opposed to the direction it is going. We had some very over reaching claims and as I tell myclients, honest credible claims communicated to the end customer will sell. Also, as a Pragmatic approach. Have you ever tried to develop a product for a client that doesn't define "natural?" In the end they will disembowel your great Formulation based upon pseudoscience they derive from blogs. It is like formulating at a movingtarget. It becomes a real barrier to R&D.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications.
  • @mynkcosmo I don't have a lot of experience with color-cosmetics but I figure if you had a picture of a good vs the troublesome batch maybe one of the many people here would recognize it?

    @Dr Catherine Pratt It should be noted that I said it is illegal, thereby not saying you can't and a lot of people don't do exactly that. Obviously, there are exceptions to the law, as well as loopholes - even to the "free from" claims making them legal, but that would take too long to bring into the debate. Another example is if the marketing is hyperbole and clearly so then it is perfectly legal. (Redbull had an ad campaign claiming it their product gives you wings - troublesome in the US, not in EU).

    The law is only as important as the enforcement to some companies, and if it pays to use claims that are borderline/just over the border then I am certain many smaller companies might do just that (All claims are judged on a case-by-case basis in the EU, making it impractical for the regulators but giving some freedom to the marketing people).

    A little practical info; the claims made for cosmetic products in the EU should follow COMMISSION REGULATION (EU) No 655/2013

    @MicroformulationI am curious, when the natural is going more performance-based and becoming more cost-efficient what about the "Vegan" claim?
    Dabbling Formulator, cosmetic safety assessor, and experienced in claim substantiation & EU regulatory affairs.
  • @Sibech I will counter with a thought-provoking question in response. "How difficult is it to meet a vegan standard and how many truly animal-derived products exist that you must have and for which other alternatives do not exist?" I know the answer and as such, meeting a vegan claim doesn't make me lose a great deal of sleep. In my opinion, a vegan claim places a great deal less challenge on the Formulator to meet than an undefined "natural" standard.

    For me, it is much the same with"Gluten-free." We can debate the Science. We can dwell on anecdotal claims from people who say they absolutely can not use gluten-containing topical products. There are relatively so few materials out there that contain gluten (Perry posted a list a few years ago), that if the marketing wants it and it doesn't have a huge impact on the final Formula, give them "gluten-free."


    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications.
  • @Sibech I didn't change suppliers and I did a sample again to see after I added more ingredients and it still didn't it. But I'll upload a picture to see if anyone can help with that. @Dr Catherine Pratt I think I'm just going to call it a regular blush for now. It's a very slippery slope to try to call it natural but the blush does speak for its self. It sells so far but thank you for ur help 
  • @Microformulation from a formulator viewpoint I agree that pretty much all of it can be replaced (if not the marketing department demands, for instance, hydrolyzed keratin).

    I find the challenge with the Vegan claim (disregarding how illogical it is) to be those who decided that animal testing makes it non-vegan (sad for everyone selling to China) and the sheer number of different vegan certifications all of which are equally biased and for-profit.
    Dabbling Formulator, cosmetic safety assessor, and experienced in claim substantiation & EU regulatory affairs.
  • edited July 11
    @Dr Catherine Pratt
    I never wrote that phenoxyethanol isn't a good preservative?
    I love it, I use it all the time combined with parabens and ethylhexylglycerin.
    But on itself it isn't strong on mold/yeast.
  • @Doreen I think you have got that message confused I was just trying to help out that’s all from my previous experience. 
    Dr. Catherine Pratt
    (B.Sc with HONS I , Ph.D Analytical/Organic Chem and Microbiology), Cosmetic Chemistry IPCS)
  • Now I read your comments & I totally agree @Doreen I certainly wasn’t trying to offend you! You know what because there are no emphasis or tone when your writing things can be taken out of context.?
    Dr. Catherine Pratt
    (B.Sc with HONS I , Ph.D Analytical/Organic Chem and Microbiology), Cosmetic Chemistry IPCS)
  • @Dr Catherine Pratt @Doreen I don't know if u girls are experienced in the color makeup but I just posted on color and makeup four of them because I'm having trouble understanding why this batch turned red on the edges. I always make batches I haven't changed anything, so I don't know and I need some help so hopefully you guys can tell me what that is 
  • Have you put in  EDTA in there?
    Dr. Catherine Pratt
    (B.Sc with HONS I , Ph.D Analytical/Organic Chem and Microbiology), Cosmetic Chemistry IPCS)
  • @Mynkcosmo
    I'm sorry, I have no experience with make up. 
    Good luck!
  • edited July 14
    @Dr Catherine Pratt
    You know what because there are no emphasis or tone when your writing things can be taken out of context.?
    True. Communication by text alone can cause misunderstandings, especially when the language used isn't your mother language.
  • Sorry @drcatherinepratt what does EDTA mean? 
  • @Mynkcosmo EDTA is an abbreviation and the INCI name for Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid.

    The compound is a chelating agent meaning it captures heavy metal ions in the product. Generally it is added for long term stability or hurdle-technologies for preservation. It can also be deliberately added in higher amounts in for example soaps to counter the calcium and magnesium ions in hard water which leads to soap scum.
    Dabbling Formulator, cosmetic safety assessor, and experienced in claim substantiation & EU regulatory affairs.
  • sorry guys!
    Dr. Catherine Pratt
    (B.Sc with HONS I , Ph.D Analytical/Organic Chem and Microbiology), Cosmetic Chemistry IPCS)
  • @Sibech oh got it. So could I use that Ethylenediaminetetraacetic instead of Phenoxyethanol or use both so it can cancel out the iron in the micas? This hasn't happened to me before so I'm just trying to figure out why now and how I can prevent it in the future. 
  • @Sibech I just researched that EDTA. I just want to use very natural products I know thattPhenoxyethanol isn't natural but I want to use and keep the ingredients at a minimum and keep the ingredient list simple. 
  • @Mynkcosmo I don't think you need EDTA in the pressed powder formulation, but having someone with more experience there chime in would be great.

    As for the question; EDTA cannot be used instead of phenoxyethanol as phenoxyethanol is a preservative (which kills both bacteria and yeast, but not fungi). EDTA, on the other hand, is added to stabilize products and is used in creams and gels because these systems are most likely to be destabilized over time.

    When I mentioned hurdle technology it basically refers to making microbial growth so unfavourable in the product, that you practically do not need preservatives, this method is however somewhat unpredictable and should always be ensured (as should all products really) by a preservative challenge test.

    As an aside, if you want to keep it natural and "environmentally friendly" EDTA does not have a popular track record.
    Dabbling Formulator, cosmetic safety assessor, and experienced in claim substantiation & EU regulatory affairs.
  • Ooo okay then I have to think about what I want to do then. But thank u so much for explaining that to me. @Sibech
  • @Sibech@Microformulation so how would I know and prevent the iron in the ingredients? I purchased in bulk so what do I have to do if there is iron in the ingredients? Does that mean I have to get rid of all ingredients?
  • @Mynkcosmo Goodness no, it is unlikely that you have to scrap it all of the raw materials are the same and to the same specifications as usual.

    Iron oxides are pigments and often used as is or to coat your mica (assumption based on the color would be that you use iron oxides) and not something commonly avoided (unless it is there by accident, in which again chelating agents work a treat).

    Maybe the troubleshooting should remain in the other thread? (would make it easier for you and people reading in the future).

    Dabbling Formulator, cosmetic safety assessor, and experienced in claim substantiation & EU regulatory affairs.
  • edited July 26
    You can try replacing the water with high percentage ethyl alcohol, which will allow for a quicker drying time.
  • And I can use ethyl alcohol and still sell the product. They are blushes so I want to make sure I can use on skin. 
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