hair conditioner

Hello, 

this is my formula for a rinse off  hair conditioner. if anyone can suggest if I need to add some silicone ?

Cetearyl  alcohol           5%

Cetrimonium chloride  1.5%

Polyquaterium-68       0.5%

Cosmedia Guar          1%

Water q.s

Comments

  • The decision to add silicones (or any other conditioning ingredient) depends on the performance characteristics you are looking for.  If you want a light conditioning effect you might add cyclomethicone but if you want more conditioning you could add dimethicone. However, if you don't want to add silicones you might not have to either.
  • Thanks perry :) :D
  • I like silicones because they give me shine and helo with detangling. dimethicone is a good choice i agree. like amodimethicone even better.
  • Thx Komirra.

    What Preservative i should use ? 


  • euxyl pe9010

  • oh  i have to add some fragrance.
  • Thats cool i assume you also going to add some puffer ingredients such as pathenol etc etc
  • I like liquid germall plus since its easy to work with. 
  • Argan Oil is good also. 
  • Euxyl PE 1090/Kopcerin PE 1090 is really good for rinse-off products. Its a fast-selling item for me.
  • i use the same also at 1% 
  • What would be the % for pantenol and argan oil?
  • you know mr Balassi and Perry are the super experts on this. I find what works best for me is about 1% panthenol because it is so expensive here. I have seen it as high as 3%. I use tiny amounts of argan oil 
  • I was thinking the same about panthenol (about 1%) and 0.5-1% argan oil. Both are expensive here.
  • It seems to me that you're lacking a fundamental conditioner ingredient (eg. BTMS) - you're going to get what I got when I tried the same: a good detangler but not a conditioner.
    Design of anti-aging creams, gels, and serums; shampoos; and therapeutic cosmetics. In-house label and box design capability.
  • In truth, Panthenol and Argan oil are claims ingredients. Whether you use 1%, 0.5% or 0.01% will not matter.  They will not have a consumer-noticeable effect whether it is in the product or not.  At least that has been my experience. I came to the conclusion doing double blinded testing on formulas with and without the ingredients.
  • edited November 2017
    Panthenol and Argan oil. Considering that the conditioner is an emulsion, I would not include Panthenol except at say 0.1% as a puff ingredient. Before you include any oil in a conditioner, you need to check to see if it is Malessezia food. I can't comment on Argan for that, because I haven't done the research.
    Design of anti-aging creams, gels, and serums; shampoos; and therapeutic cosmetics. In-house label and box design capability.
  • So they are used just to speculate? Or in other words, it is added in small quantities (0.1%) just for ad purpose? 
  • @em88 - Yes, just added for claims purposes. The only formulators who use them at higher levels are those who have been mislead by the marketing departments of the raw material companies.

    If you did a blinded with / without test using Panthenol it's highly unlikely you would be able to figure out which is which.

    Argan oil has about the same fatty acid composition as Olive Oil and will perform the same as it in a hair care product. In a shampoo, it will depress foam. In a conditioner, it may stay behind on hair to provide conditioning. But adding too much will result in the hair being weighed down.
  • Awesome info! It would be great to read an article regarding adding different oils in shampoo. Any information is much appreciated! 
    Thank you
  • edited November 2017
    @Perry
    In truth, Panthenol and Argan oil are claims ingredients. Whether you use 1%, 0.5% or 0.01% will not matter. 
    Couldn't agree more. I don't understand the whole run on different kinds of (expensive) oils (like Argan, Prickly Pear etc), if you  compare the oil profiles, there is nothing exceptional about it apart from some fatty acid content differences. It must be the idea of luxury I guess... 
    And I'm really tired of seeing vitamin claims on oils, lots of sellers (not only the Etsy/Amazon kind) claim their oils are containing water soluble vitamins naturally, like several B vitamins and especially vitamin C. I sometimes wonder if they are just plain stupid, or do they know they are selling lies?
  • The only formulators who use them at higher levels are those who have been mislead by the marketing departments of the raw material companies.

    And the only formulators who use levels below 1% are those who need to do so because the seller wants to mislead the customers by 'spectacular Argan benefits' claims, while customers are only paying for marketing, not the Argan.

    @em88
    Why would you incorporate an expensive ingredient like Argan and/or panthenol only at low levels because they are expensive? Isn't that deceiving? 
  • the South African market loves Argan. The marketing people has made it out to be the best thing since sliced cheese for ladies hair.
  • I wouldn't. I knew that there are lots of companies doing this, but I'm surprised that this thing is becoming so normal. 
    When I add an API (oils in this case) the quantity is justified on its pharmacological effect and it is based by pharmaceutical/medical scientific articles/books. 

  • @sven
    Sliced cheese for ladies hair?  :#
     ;) 
  • If you look at Google Trends, something happened that made interest in Argan Oil takeoff in 2010. 
    https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=argan oil

    This type of thing (using claims ingredients in products) has been done in the cosmetic industry for decades. It continues because that's what people buy.

    Consumers don't want to know that Petrolatum is making their skin feel good, they would rather believe it's the Aloe Vera.

    Consumers don't want to know that Dimethicone makes their hair shiny. They want to believe it's the Argan oil.

    If consumers were better critical thinkers, they wouldn't fall for these marketing shenanigans & marketers would stop doing it.

    Then formulators could spend more time finding ingredients that had an actual impact on product performance instead of hunting down a new 'feature' ingredients that provides a good story but no real benefit.
  • @Perry
    True. It seems like customers want to be deceived...
    Like La Mer for example, astronomical prices for products that are mediocre at best. Yet they are extremely popular here, even by teenagers. The customers that do use their common sense seem scarce...
  • Perry that is some good insight, I was just speaking to someone today and how he mentioned tea tree oil products were released before all the hype and those lines failed until later when it got caught in consumers eyes down the line. There’s a time and place for everything. 

    We just made some fragrance hair mists. We couldn’t really claim anything cool until We added a drop of Argan oil into it. It’s just marketing and business. 

    Also I had no idea google had a trends I’ve been using anither tool for amazon to find trends but google is the master, very cool tool, thanks! 
  • @Doreen81
    this is the first I have heard of la mer, I laughed at the pricing and I laughed even harder when I showed my friend and she said that both her sisters buy their products.

     Funny thing is I think we actually manufactured for them and if that’s the case I know for a fact what’s in those bottles is under $10. Crazy profit margins. I’ve actually been looking for a niche to enter, and this couldn’t have been brought to my attention at a better time! Thank you. 
  • So you think its best to add panthenol in leave in conditioners? I have plenty of panthenol right now, how can I benefit of it? A leave in conditioner with btms and panthenol will do better than a rinse off conditioner with panthenol?
  • Marketing Rule #1:  Feed the dogs the food they like to eat.

    The funny thing about cosmetic products it that often there is a consumer perception that more expensive is better ... it makes people feel like they are treating themselves to something special.  You got to hand it to La Mer, Le Prairie and companies of similar ilk ... Exorbitantly priced products, yet relatively inexpensive to manufacture, positioned as "It" products ... not an easy task to succeed at. 
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    Provides Formulation Development and Lab-Scale Contract Manufacturing Services.  See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com

  • ^^^ That. From personal experience I agree.
    Design of anti-aging creams, gels, and serums; shampoos; and therapeutic cosmetics. In-house label and box design capability.
  • edited December 2017
    a friend of mine at another company described an occasion when one of their customers (a very expensive department store in London) wanted their product to have a longer INCI list, and cost more, because that would make it more aspirational

    it was notable for being the only time a customer ever complained that their product was not expensive enough; a very old saying about fools and their money springs to mind
    UK based formulation chemist. Strongest subjects: hair styling, hair bleaches, hair dyes (oxidative and non-oxidative) I know some stuff about: EU regulations, emulsions (O/W and W/O), toothpaste, mouthwash, shampoos, other toiletries
  • Marketing Rule #2:  The main objective of marketing is to compel fools to part with their money by creating the illusions of "need" and "prestige"
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    Provides Formulation Development and Lab-Scale Contract Manufacturing Services.  See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com

  • We need a marketing rule thread here if we don’t have one
  • Well yes I agree.
    Design of anti-aging creams, gels, and serums; shampoos; and therapeutic cosmetics. In-house label and box design capability.
  • @Perry ;
      
    The marketing BASF say " You must add the panthenol to make the film former (Polyquaternium-68 ) more flexible, less flaky and more pleasing to the touche.

    http://cosmeticsciencetechnology.com/articles/samples/881.pdf
  • What did you think if i add (Dimethicone (and) Dimethiconol
    Cyclopentasiloxane) to my rinse -off  formula ?.
  • @MarkBroussard true, but no sensible customer would seriously encourage the contract manufacturer to overcharge them and rip them off
    UK based formulation chemist. Strongest subjects: hair styling, hair bleaches, hair dyes (oxidative and non-oxidative) I know some stuff about: EU regulations, emulsions (O/W and W/O), toothpaste, mouthwash, shampoos, other toiletries
  • edited December 2017
    "Fools" is a little heavy word. :|

  • edited December 2017
    Creme De La Mer   1.0 oz  $170.00 USD

    Algae (Seaweed) Extract, Mineral Oil\Paraffinum Liquidum\Huile Minerale, Petrolatum, Glycerin, Isohexadecane, Microcrystalline Wax\Cera Microcristallina\Cire Microcristalline, Lanolin Alcohol, Citrus Aurantifolia (Lime) Extract, Sesamum Indicum (Sesame) Seed Oil, Eucalyptus Globulus (Eucalyptus) Leaf Oil, Sesamum Indicum (Sesame) Seed Powder, Medicago Sativa (Alfalfa) Seed Powder, Helianthus Annuus (Sunflower) Seedcake, Prunus Amygdalus Dulcis (Sweet Almond) Seed Meal, Sodium Gluconate, Copper Gluconate, Calcium Gluconate, Magnesium Gluconate, Zinc Gluconate, Magnesium Sulfate, Paraffin, Tocopheryl Succinate, Niacin, Water\Aqua\Eau, Beta-Carotene, Decyl Oleate, Aluminum Distearate, Octyldodecanol, Citric Acid, Cyanocobalamin, Magnesium Stearate, Panthenol, Limonene, Geraniol, Linalool, Hydroxycitronellal, Citronellol, Benzyl Salicylate, Citral, Sodium Benzoate, Alcohol Denat., Fragrance.

    Then what would you call someone who pays $170/ounce for this? ... Astute?
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    Provides Formulation Development and Lab-Scale Contract Manufacturing Services.  See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com

  • With all those extracts and salts they can almost speculate to cure cancer lol

    This thread is great! Thank you for your posts. 
  • @Dino - Interesting. 5% panthenol in a formula would be ridiculously expensive.  And perhaps you could get the same effect (or better) using a more simple humectant like Glycerin or Propylene Glycol. 

    I hope I didn't come off as sounding dismissive like "panthenol doesn't do anything".  That isn't what was meant. There are two points that were meant.

    First, panthenol in hair products probably wouldn't do anything a consumer would notice. Lab tests often show things that consumers don't notice.

    Second, although panthenol does work as a humectant there is nothing about it that makes it a superior formulating choice when considering effectiveness (as a humectant) and cost. There are less expensive ingredients that work better.

    @heraklit - I agree. I wouldn't call consumers "fools".  People who are duped into spending excessive amounts of money for cosmetics are better described as misinformed or victims of marketing. They deserve sympathy rather than scorn.

  • @MarkBroussard that's the Coca Cola style, and sadly it works. But in cosmetics I think it's harder for the consumers to know if a product is worth the price or they are being ripped off.

    I think the logic for cosmetics is:
    better packaging and design> the company invests in a pretty thing that goes with the product quality.
    higher price > the product is better (meaning more "concentrated", better or more components, or whatever logic that applies)

    It's rare to see a consumer reading the INCI, simply because they don't understand it. But let's say they read it, what would they see?. A large label with many components. If they compare to a different product with a shorter INCI, it's logical to think it's better because it has more things, and that it's worth to pay the price because is more complete. 

    I have to agree with Perry, the buyer is the victim of an unscrupulous company.
  • edited December 2017
    @DAS:

    I don't think there are any victims here per se ... Kudos to companies that succeed in convincing someone to pay $170 per ounce for a product that costs $5.00, or less, per ounce to manufacture surrounded by pretty packaging that costs probably 2X to 3X the cost of the product itself.

    If anyone is a victim here, it's consumers who victimize themselves by willingly paying outrageous prices not knowing if the product delivers value commensurate with its price.

    There is nothing unscrupulous about asking an exorbitant price and selling to buyers who willingly, of their own volition, pay that exorbitant asking price.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    Provides Formulation Development and Lab-Scale Contract Manufacturing Services.  See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com

  • @MarkBroussard - I agree that these marketers aren't unscrupulous just because they can get people to pay high prices for products. For the most part, cosmetic marketers do not lie. 

    You're right, consumers are best described as victims of their own emotions, impulses and ignorance. Critical thinking skills are not encouraged in our society.

  • @Perry:

    Agreed ... One man's Fool is another man's Victim Of Their Own Emotions ... LOL!  All in good fun.

    Yes, La Mer does not do anything unscrupulous in their marketing ... and there is plenty of info out there for any consumer curious enough to do a little research before dropping $170 for an ounce of cream.

    I would gladly sell once of my creams for $170 an ounce if I could get consumers to pay that much.  More Is Better ... it's the American way!
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    Provides Formulation Development and Lab-Scale Contract Manufacturing Services.  See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com

  • @Perry ; thank you so much for your answer
  • edited December 2017
    Anyone interested in creating something similar to La Mer? But Better products, fraction of the price. Strictly ecommerce 
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