[Zaf]

Looks like Terpineol is a contact allergen… so scrap that (it’s irritating anyways so guess that’s a good thing anyways).

Maybe if I search long enough I’ll find something on Humulene but I’ve been searching for a day and just not having any luck.

[Zaf]

I tend to whip the heck out of it till it fluffs up, cool, then whip/blend again, and another cool if I feel like it after it’s been packaged. I mostly do that because then I can see how stiff it is but I’ve had more luck that way. Any whipping/blending adds a little heat and I usually do the second whip on a lower speed to not introduce much heat. Shea seems to appreciate some tempering and I’d generally suggest it with waxy butters (so like Cupuacu and Sal too). Shea’s notorious for causing funky texture - usually grittiness, but I’ve had the quality you’re talking about a time or two in a batch which tempering and quick cooling seems to fix.

I was thinking about this and you’d think the wax would improve that quality of Shea… should break up and bind the fatty acids I would think. (Excuse me if I’m saying that the wrong way)

But if you got it figured it then you’re golden!

God I love Shea but it’s such a pain in the butt.

[Zaf]

I did find a tutorial for extracting this stuff for use in balms and the likes: https://fairtradefrankincense.com/2016/11/20/extracting-the-resin-and-boswellic-acids-from-frankincense-a-visual-walkthrough/

And figured I could do something like this - provided I can find a reliable source for the tears.

Yes, I’m once again wanting to try things that maybe are a bit beyond my depth. It’s the fun of learning through experience.

Hey, you think if I make a glue with the texture of whipped cream and the scent of an apothecary people would buy it?

I jest… but I really do enjoy just playing with this stuff. I bought Pequi oil for the f*** of it and just… wow, fruit and liquor with the texture of a very soft Mango butter… what the hell am I going to do with this? ?

I think a little extra moisture barrier would be nice (it was very light in the test batch… but then I also don’t want it to be sticky and overbearing like lanolin… eesh).

The dry feel of the recipe was very well received though… so who knows, maybe that’s what my target clientel want…

but considering what recipes have been getting attention - I think I’ve got the market that are interested in simple ingredients they can understand. I worked really hard to cut the ingredients to separate out odd-looking ingredients for some eye-appeal.

I dunno, I already look at this stuff like I’m making food. I know the way I read a menu and I’m kinda hoping people will look at the ingredients and kinda salivate.

I really liked it… but I made it so… kinda partial. The emulsifier pushed it right over the top. It came out amazing and creamy - not a bit of waxiness to it. I did feel like the magnesium absorbed better in a w/o emulsion though and that just may be about how the water absorbs when it’s suspended in droplets rather than… I think Sorbitan Olivate is supposed to create a mesh network? (Emulsifiers are weird… but not as weird as that one time I read an article on Portland Cement for no reason than curiosity about what magnesium complexes do)

Ok. You’ve had enough of my encentricity for one post. I hope you guys are well. ?

[Zaf]

How are you cooling this? Are you just letting it come back down to room temp naturally?

Shea butter is pretty much the only thing I’m super familiar with. And that’d be my initial guess as well. Also: perhaps for the other oils — when you have lots of different fatty acids they can do weird stuff on cool down.

I’m not sure how cool down effects the stearic acid/ect, but Shea is a temperamental $#@& and does not like it when it’s cooled slowly.

If it won’t destabilize the other ingredients, try cooling it quicker (cold bath, fridge, freezer - pick one). I usually throw my butters in the freezer for about 15-30 minutes (you probably really only need like 5 minutes… I’m assuming that jar is about 2oz, it’ll cool quickly). That’ll just get everything to solidify as is.

I wouldn’t even consider that since you tried it with 2% Shea… but that you’re getting the texture you want on the top and then the texture you don’t want further in, my brain wants to say maybe it’s how it’s cooling. I’ve had liquid oils try to separate from Shea with minor temp changes (heck pure Shea does that on its own!). If any ingredients don’t contradict it, always try quick cooling with stuff that involves Shea.

Disclaimer: I am not a chemist, just a person who works a lot with Shea.

[Zaf]

And, yes, I understand that Resin and Wax are not the same. They’re both fixatives though and that’s the main quality I’m looking at there - that and there’s more potential medicinal/Anti-Inflammatory properties there than is in sunflower wax (I mean… this is basically a hydrogenated oil isn’t it).

[Zaf]

I’ve actually never had a problem with grit from the zinc oxide (and I have been using it as kinda a staple ingredient for about two years). I do find that it mixes better if I essentially blend it with a small amount of liquid oil to make essentially a paste them slowly add more ingredients till it’s fully encorporated. (I mean, obviously you gotta whip the heck out of it… I also add it slowly to try and mix it powdery, not clumped)

I actually ran across some stuff that suggested Magnesium Sulfate might do this with too quick of cooling. Last batch I was in a bit of a rush to get the cool down done so I could test thickness. I may have put it in the fridge for 15 minutes. I’m so used to doing this with body butters because it works so well, probably a terrible idea with something with a mineral content like I’m using (magnesium is still 10%, MSM is 5%).

I listed the Cetearyl Olivate as emulsifier because it comes with the Sorbitan Olivate as an emulsifying wax. Thanks for letting me know it’s just a wax/fixative. I guess that gives me a better idea of how I can trade out that component of I feel like it. Yeah, I did get the impression that the way Glycerol Monostearate works is specifically that it draws and distributes fluids… so that makes it a humuclant technically?

I am looking currently at Frankincense Resin made for internal/medicinal use (I am not sure people should eat it… but people eat Neem oil and call it medicine and throw themselves in the ER with hypoglycemia and encephalitis… so… whatever). I figure this is going to be the cleanest. I’m also more than willing to filter it myself if that’s needed. Unfortunately for me, the lotus wax I bought had sediment in it so I had to filter that before using as well (ugh).

Thanks for your knowledge! I figured I’d use triglycerides/ect at something like 1-2%. Hopefully enough to add body without diluting the other ingredients too much. Not totally sure what I’ll reduce to make room for it, but we’ll cross that bridge when we get to it. I really liked that Glycerol Monostearate seems like it can be used without heating. I’m trying to protect the polyphenols in the olive oil I’m using so adding something that can basically work for cold-emulsion or a binder without adding heat would be excellent — I’m also ok with adding hydrogenated oils, they won’t detract from the moisturizing properties so it seems a reasonable addition for a little more stability when the summer months come back around.

And thanks for the compliment! ? I put a fair amount of work and effort into this one. Still not perfect but we’ll get there. I have to wonder how many times I’ll switch things around before I’m done. ?

[Zaf]

Also: can something like triglycerides or glycerol monostearate be used to improve the stability of anhydrous recipes during shipping (whipped body butter specifically)?

I know a lot of people use gums, starches, ect for this purpose… I just don’t love adding carbohydrates to a body butter unless it’ll adding something.

[Zaf]

I worried about that too but it looks like there’s products on the market using oat extract for the same purpose of colloidal oat. I am trying to make it as thick as possible - I came out with something that ended up about as thick as a simple syrup (once totally cooled). That’d be about how much water to oat you use and the time steeping (I did approximately 50/50 water/oat but a quick steep since I didn’t need longer with hot water). I did hot water to make it easy on myself since I’m heating and holding the water phase to reduce bacteria. You can also try essentially cold-brewing the oat milk but I’m not sure how well that’ll extract (they do something similar with almond milk but it involves soaking the almonds overnight then rinsing, blending, and straining - but this is to soften the almonds so they’re easier to juice - since oats are so much smaller (and indeed with grinding to a powder) they should extract easier in cold water).

Not sure how much of oats components are effected by heat - pretty sure there are some saponins and polyphenols in there… at least the polyphenols would likely be destroyed with heating. I think the saponins should be fine which might be offering the skin protectant properties people are looking for.

[Zaf]

I think theoretically you’ll get some of the nutrients with an oat milk, but the issue might mostly be how it’s processed.

So… I did some fair research on colloidal oat - the concept being here that for the soothing and humuclant properties you need the Bran - so the whole oat. Since colloidal oat is a giant pain in the butt to make I’m going with oat milk in my cream recipe. What I’ve done is basically grind the heck out of whole oat “groats”, put it in hot water and mix/dissolve and strain (or skim off the top, avoiding the sedement at the bottom cus gritt). I’m using a strainer that’s only about 100-75 micron and I squeeze the heck out of the mixture - because it’s not a smaller mesh my assumption is that some of these properties will come through — in that if you make say, a celery juice this way, some of the chlorophyll comes through with squeezing through the strainer.

Oat is a great food also for bacteria and fungus - some people have suggested adding a preservative directly to the oat extract for this reason.

I don’t know if any of that helps. I’m not a chemist. I’m sure they’ll be around to help.

[Zaf]

Sorry: GLYCEROL Monostearate… because apparently I’m making ice cream now. ?

[Zaf]

I used equal parts magnesium and zinc. I’m not using natural salts, rather 100% magnesium chloride (not that that makes a difference when we’re talking boyancy - just not sure if it makes a difference difference in chemical reaction… though I’d assume in this case it wouldn’t).

I got the impression that the pH should drop though… and I’d think quite a lot. The point is mute though. At this point I think I’ll just make two test batches: one with magnesium sulfate and zinc oxide, and one with magnesium chloride (without zinc)… see how I feel about both of them and go from there.

On the bright side… I spent awhile messing with the quantities and think I finally came up with something workable. The only thing left is to make them and test them… then move things around more if needed ?

[Zaf]

Lol Pharma! Nah, you’re fine. It’s pretty clear that you’re joking. I think I just need to create a portal gun and stick him in a pocket dimension for a bit sometimes. 15 minutes would be pretty good by me.

Kinda funny cus I’m on the other side, glad I don’t have a dog right now (I have a cat instead, clearly I like keeping creatures around that have no interest in following direction)!

And thanks for the info. Yeah, that sounds awful and totally not what I’m going for (could you imagine putting that on skin that’s already broken and tender… OUCH!).

[Zaf]

Did I get the wrong chemical abreviation for Zinc Sulfate (or the wrong number at the end)? I mixed water+magnesium chloride+zinc oxide, in that order. Sorry, I’m confused a bit. I’m trying, I swear. ?

Also: was to the understanding that Zinc Oxide and Magnesium Sulfate don’t react to each other (they’ve used the mixture to protect the skin from chemical warfare?).

And Valium sounds lovely (you don’t happen to be a pharmacist too maybe?). ?

[Zaf]

The strips turned a much darker color as they dried (way alkaline (7-8+), not sure if that means anything. Also, totally smelled like zinc oxide, even after about half an hour. The pH of the solution may have gone a little bit more alkaline in that time (it did appear to stay pretty solidly in the range of 6-6.5), but certainly didn’t turn acidic. My guess is that the decomp to ZnSO4 is pretty slow. I’m using non-nano ZnO if the particle makes any difference (and pure magnesium chloride since unlike the homeopathy community, I’d prefer to NOT work with contaminates ?).

(Also: wanted to apologize for my brain not functioning, as is likely obvious from my responses… I have a toddler and a whole lot of brain fog)

[Zaf]

I did the science experiment. From what I can tell, nothing happened? I ended up with a slightly viscous white liquid. The zinc did suspend (stable) in the water, which is kinda unusual but I’m gonna go out on a limb and assume that’s just about the salt content in the water. pH was about 6… give or take since reading a pH strip with zinc oxide in it is kinda difficult.

Gotta be honest, was half expecting it to do something unusual, but it was completely uneventful. The solution also didn’t feel any different than I would expect from water+salt+zinc oxide. I am working with non-nano zinc if the particle size makes any difference.

[Zaf]

By test the emulsion, I mean the mixture before adding the base portion (which still has oil components and wax). (Just don’t want the lotion to sting because it’s too acidic… though I might want to drop the vitamin c down to 0.5% anyways?).

[Zaf]

Will do, Pharma! I also purchased some pH strips so I can relay that as well. I’ll be making a small test batch this weekend so that I can decide where to go from there.

I was wondering, since it was mentioned that the Ascorbyl Palmitate has an effect on the pH but is oil-soluble: do I need to just calculate the effect on the pH with the pH from the water portion, or can I test the pH of the entire emulsion?

I also purchased Caprylhydroxamic Acid and some extra vegetable glycerin. I assume I pretty much picked the weakest solvent in that category (and I am fully aware of the sticky quality - I also dabbled in nicotine/vape juice for awhile), but the other options all seemed to be potential irritants (and I personally find glycol to be irritating to my skin, so I’m expecting that others will as well - never had a problem with glycerin though). I figured I’d use it mostly for the extracts I want to play with (I have a list, mostly plantain for the allantoin… surely you see a theme here? LOL), but it sounded like magnesium can dissolve into it… so I’m going to give it a shot to try to keep the water content low but encorporate water-based ingredients without breaking the moisture barrier (so mostly add it as an *addition* to the water content I already have).

Love reading your discussion. Hopefully I’ll absorb some of it (now painfully aware that I need to educate myself about chemistry - but hey, it’ll give me something to research for the next couple of years). Thanks for being willing to hash it out like that for me. I appreciate it!

[Zaf]

I had actually already read most of those studies in previous research I’d done, but I appreciate it all the same.

I think I have a plan of attack, but I may end up making a couple different batches/creams to test everything and see where it leads me. The recipe was very helpful.

Thank you all so much for your help!!!

[Zaf]

If I switch back to a magnesium sulfate, boost the levels maybe (to 10%) and with the addition of the MSM get a decent absorption? I’m not going for raising systemic magnesium levels (not that there’s anything bad about that - it’s certainly a bonus), but hoping to get it past the skin to the soft tissue… and with an emulsifier get it to not go gritty (or add just enough water to incorporate)? I kinda want the soft butter to remain the largest component. Too much water and it seems to break the moisture barrier.

[Zaf]

Ok, no, maybe the whole oxide component needs to go. ? That’s some strange chemistry stuff I probably don’t want to mess with (I can read a medical study but tried to pull up a paper on magnesium chloride and magnesium oxide reactions and realized that I can’t read about 50% of this!).

Thanks for the heads up!

[Zaf]

Thank you so much Pharm! I will look into all of that and see what changes I want/need to make! That is all super helpful!!!

So the problem with the zinc is specifically the oxide?

I did read up on magnesium oxide as an alternative, it didn’t sound like it’s used as often but sounds like it might have similar qualities to zinc in forming a moisture barrier and encouraging healing.

Though this might explain why the first few days of this cream’s life I needed to mix it in thoroughly so that it didn’t leave a white film… and about a week in this quality completely disappeared. Perhaps it reacted and changed to a sulfate? It sounds like zinc sulfate isn’t nearly as safe as zinc oxide so… yeah, might have to go (magnesium turning into sulfate would be much more preferable).

[Zaf]

By grams this should be (note kinda aprox as a TBSP isn’t a perfect 15 grams, ect):

Water:

Water - 30

Mag - 15

MSM - 15

Oat - 5

Wax:

Lotus Wax - 10

Sal Butter - 30

Jojoba - 7.5

Avocado - 3.75

Hemp - 2.5

Zinc - 15

Vit C - 2.5

Base:

Cupuacu Butter - 60

Olive - 45

Grapeseed - 37.5

Vit E - 5

Vit D - 5

Aloe - 1.25

Bamboo - 1.25

I’m guessing I’m going to have to round out the odd numbers so it weighs out correctly? (Example: bumping up 2.5 grams to 3 grams, ect… at least to make it easy on myself?)

[Zaf]

Ingredients by %

Water:

Water - 10.21

Magnesium - 5.11

MSM - 5.11

Oat - 1.7

Wax:

Lotus Wax - 3.4

Sal Butter - 10.21

Jojoba - 2.55

Avocado - 1.27

Hemp - 0.85

Zinc - 5.11

Vit C - 0.85

Base:

Cupuacu Butter - 20.43

Olive - 15.32

Grapeseed - 12.77

Sea Buckthorn - 0.85

Vit E - 1.7

Vit D - 1.7

Aloe - 0.43

Bamboo - 0.43

When I make it again I’ll weigh it so that I can have the correct quantities, but this should be relatively accurate to what %s I’m looking at.

[Zaf]

Also: the mention about cultures…

I was reading up on MSM and it’s purpose as a preservative and came across studies on cell cultures - obviously this has nothing to do with topicals nor cosmetics. They were using about 1-5% in the cultures growing H1N1 (flu virus) and using it in some way to encourage the virus growth… at least that’s what it sounded like.

I’m not totally sure what the mechanism there is. MSM is a totally new ingredient to me that I’ve been looking at playing with for awhile. I had considered DSMO for a bit but decided that it was too dangerous to work with because it increases penetration too much and can cause nasty stuff to get into the blood stream. I do understand that MSM crosses the blood-brain barrier but it sounded like that’s oral use.

[Zaf]

I did read up on it and it did sound like magnesium sulfate (generally in the form of a bath) and magnesium chloride do appear to work, to some extent, for transdermal… though obviously the research to date appears to be equal on both sides as to if it does or doesn’t (mostly in that a lot of studies said they don’t suggest it because of poor absorption). The impression I got was that about 30% gets through (though, again, the study I read that got this kind of quality was through using Epsom in a bath - I’m sure that soaking allows the ingredients to get deeper. I figured the MSM and Jojoba would help for this purpose as they’re supposed to help penetrate the skin barrier.

Ya guys are kinda making it sound like I should scrap the magnesium and msm and just go back to anhydrous formulations. ?