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@Mynkcosmo Goodness no, it is unlikely that you have to scrap it all of the raw materials are the same and to the same specifications as usual.

Iron oxides are pigments and often used as is or to coat your mica (assumption based on the color would be that you use iron oxides) and not something commonly avoided (unless it is there by accident, in which again chelating agents work a treat).

Maybe the troubleshooting should remain in the other thread? (would make it easier for you and people reading in the future).

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@rebecasso the only times () are approved in INCI names are for specific botanical names, for example Arachis Hypogaea (Peanut) Oil, again only specific ones are okay.

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@Mynkcosmo I don’t think you need EDTA in the pressed powder formulation, but having someone with more experience there chime in would be great.

As for the question; EDTA cannot be used instead of phenoxyethanol as phenoxyethanol is a preservative (which kills both bacteria and yeast, but not fungi). EDTA, on the other hand, is added to stabilize products and is used in creams and gels because these systems are most likely to be destabilized over time.

When I mentioned hurdle technology it basically refers to making microbial growth so unfavourable in the product, that you practically do not need preservatives, this method is however somewhat unpredictable and should always be ensured (as should all products really) by a preservative challenge test.

As an aside, if you want to keep it natural and “environmentally friendly” EDTA does not have a popular track record.

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@belassi I think the lead was added as a way to inrease density so the bubbles would remain on the skin and not fly away as soon as you lather the soap!

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@Gunther I’m curious about a few things;

1) When attempting the in-situ synthesis for (I presume) why not just synthesize them separately and add the required amount of solution/salt?

2) How are you going to keep track of the potential ester hydrolysis? (We might be the only ones but I don’t have a TLC plates or appropriate solvents lying around most of the time).

3) Keep us updated!!

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@Belassi it is obviously there as a perfuming agent in concentrations >100ppm.

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I have not done any significant amount of color-matching, but in my experience adding pigments after emulsification does not show as clearly.

I don’t know if it would work but personally I would make 4 bases for the skin tones, one of each pure pigment (red, yellow, and black iron oxides + Titanium oxide), then do color matching with the emulsified products, calculate the amounts of pigment and do a small batch to see if the color did indeed match.

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@Mynkcosmo EDTA is an abbreviation and the INCI name for Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid.

The compound is a chelating agent meaning it captures heavy metal ions in the product. Generally it is added for long term stability or hurdle-technologies for preservation. It can also be deliberately added in higher amounts in for example soaps to counter the calcium and magnesium ions in hard water which leads to soap scum.

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Unless you keep them in a wet environ (shower) where it might be opened, then no. There is little (no) risk of microbial contamination when the water level is that low.

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@zuzig I don’t think you can judge the antioxidant capacity or potency of a cosmetic product with any foods (or any easily doable-at-home experiments).

the antioxidant function of ascorbic acid in apples is by virtue of pH denaturing the enzyme (grated apples brown more quickly because more enzyme is released compared to cut apples).

 I would suggest doing a test for UVB induced oxidative stress in vitro to see If the product worked.

I do however think the apple test would make for an app(l)ealing (sorry for the pun) marketing story, however then you would need the active to be oil soluble with a partition coefficient favoring the water phase. I am not in marketing and could be wrong on that part.

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Assuming you want to test for the antioxidant capacity you should know that the browning of apples is an enzymatic reaction and not just free oxygen.

easily understandable: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/experts-why-cut-apples-turn-brown/.

As for the validity, it can say if your serum can keep apples from browning and that is about all.

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@Microformulation from a formulator viewpoint I agree that pretty much all of it can be replaced (if not the marketing department demands, for instance, hydrolyzed keratin).

I find the challenge with the Vegan claim (disregarding how illogical it is) to be those who decided that animal testing makes it non-vegan (sad for everyone selling to China) and the sheer number of different vegan certifications all of which are equally biased and for-profit.

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@mynkcosmo I don’t have a lot of experience with color-cosmetics but I figure if you had a picture of a good vs the troublesome batch maybe one of the many people here would recognize it?

@”Dr Catherine Pratt” It should be noted that I said it is illegal, thereby not saying you can’t and a lot of people don’t do exactly that. Obviously, there are exceptions to the law, as well as loopholes - even to the “free from” claims making them legal, but that would take too long to bring into the debate. Another example is if the marketing is hyperbole and clearly so then it is perfectly legal. (Redbull had an ad campaign claiming it their product gives you wings - troublesome in the US, not in EU).

The law is only as important as the enforcement to some companies, and if it pays to use claims that are borderline/just over the border then I am certain many smaller companies might do just that (All claims are judged on a case-by-case basis in the EU, making it impractical for the regulators but giving some freedom to the marketing people).

A little practical info; the claims made for cosmetic products in the EU should follow COMMISSION REGULATION (EU) No 655/2013

@MicroformulationI am curious, when the natural is going more performance-based and becoming more cost-efficient what about the “Vegan” claim?

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@Mynkcosmo Did you change supplier (or did your supplier change supplier) anything for that batch - and if you made it a second time afterwards, did it happen again?

@”Dr Catherine Pratt” You are welcome to disagree, that is what debate is all about.

I think you’re right that natural is unlikely to be going away, especially as there are no legal definitions of natural cosmetics - granted most people wouldn’t call silicones natural but they are crafted from a naturally abundant material so why not?

All jokes aside, the main reason I believe you are right is that people still adhere to the ridiculous notion “If you can’t pronounce it, it can’t be good for you” and with the current level of misinformation available to the mass market, “natural” for the sake of “natural” is certain to remain for the long haul.

You mention that marketing BS is made for inferior products and frankly, in the EU at best it’s unethical (fearmongering for sales) and at the worst it’s illegal (False marketing eg. “Chemical Free” and from July 2019, in the EU denigrating other products and includes “Free from Parabens” for example). Furthermore fearmongering of a single ingredient also spreads like a weed to make people believe every product containing it is horrible possibly even dangerous for you.

And honestly, I think you are demeaning to women all over the world with your statement “Women want something that says its good for you, has a nice pretty picture and nice packaging that’s it!“.

People what something that says it’s good for you and more importantly makes them feel good. Actually, that is what cosmetics are all about, keeping your skin healthy and making you feel good and comfortable in that skin.

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@mynkcosmo: Depending on where you are you are not allowed use phenoxyethanol at more than 1% anyway (it’s the legal maximum in the EU). If you fear the MCT will oxidize, then add appropriate antioxidants - tocopherol is often sufficient for a simple lipid phase.

If you added compounds that may catalyze (speed up) oxidation, then BHT works better, however, if you’re scared of it I have heard positive things about Pentaerythrityl Tetra-di-t-butyl Hydroxyhydrocinnamate - I haven’t used it and can’t say first hand how it performs.

I presume you are your own marketing department so here are my 2 cents -

Now you don’t mention what colours you intend to use, but I will assume iron oxides. it is instead of “without parabens, “nasties” and so forth” it is a plague in the cosmetic industry to use scaremongering tactics anyway.

don’t bother calling it “All mineral blush” just call it a mineral blush and tout the positives of how good (after you tested it and proved it to be great) for as @Microformulation said: “A customer will buy a good product that meets a natural standard. They will not buy a restrictively “natural” product that does not perform well.”

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@Mynkcosmo, with all due respect, if you ask whether phenoxyethanol is a mineral, you haven’t done sufficient research into the ingredients you want to use. Regardless, if you want it to be all mineral, then you can’t use MCT.

You are relatively restricted in your choice of preservatives when having an anhydrous formula I would suggest using parabens which case parabens are quite useful. Otherwise, add a fungicidal compound to the phenoxyethanol.

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In principle, yes, it might remain allowed in Leave-on products.

But honestly I don’t know, sometimes the regulators are unpredictable. If RAC concludes it to be near negligible in toxicity it might depend on the opinion of the committee that assesses social-economic impact. But that won’t be until after RAC are done with their analysis.

Once it reaches the water it will bioaccumulate in marine animals (Salmon I believe was the main reason) which we might eat and ingest (It was observed to accumulate around rat livers in a toxicity study of D5). Which was the reason for the D5 restriction (read: ban).

What is worth remembering is the impurities in Dimethicone - the 0.1% is basically there as a safety margin for impurities in other silicones.

Maybe you can enlighten me on something.

- I know D5 (and D4) are considered volatile, but they have a low vapour pressure (something along 30 Pa) how can they possibly be considered volatile and expected to evaporate off the skin? 

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Yes, the limits as currently set applies only to Rinse-off products.

The ECHA did file a registration of intention to restrict usage in leave-on products with a deadline set to April 2018 (Request) but later adding D6 to both the rinse-off and leave-on restriction in their registration.  (Registry of Restriction Intentions)

The deadline was originally set to April 2018 but postponed to January 2019 due to the addition of D6 to the dossier. (Update to the request)

Recently, the call for evidence for RAC (A chance for stakeholders to submit study data relevant to the dossier to the Committee for Risk Assessment) had its deadline. (Previous Calls for Evidence).

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First off the D5 isn’t restricted yet, it is banned in rinse of cosmetics (in concentrations above 0.1%) from January 31 2020.

Other reason you won’t find it in the cosmetics regulative yet is that the ban was passed through REACH, it can be found as entry 70 of annex XVII of Reach.

it may be placed on annex III at a later date, but I am not certain if that is currently in the works.

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@Gunther without wanting to nitpick; are hydrosols not, strictly speaking, a byproduct of steam distillation? Whereas extracting it through infusion would yield an extract?

The distinction would be in the fact that not all water-soluble compounds are sufficiently volatile to evaporate off during distillation but may still be extracted.

@Graci As for the price difference, it is markedly more expensive to use hydrosols than it is to use water.
Obviously, prices may differ from vendor to vendor but as an example (ex. taxes),  I can get 20L distilled water for 18.5£ and a quick search on Amazon for rose hydrosol gave prices ranging from 4£ to 10£ per 100ml (assuming 19% VAT £673 for 20L). Being fair there is likely cheaper sources, a google search lead me to “The Soap Kitchen” in the UK with a rose hydrosol 25L for §
£358.

Summary in rounded numbers:
Distilled water 20L = £19
Amazon Rose Hydrosol 20L = £673
The Soap Kitchen Rose Hydrosol 20L = £287
That is for the cheapest option I found in a cursory search a whopping factor 15 in price difference.

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If the gum doesn’t make any difference you might want to reconsider the amount of Salix Alba extract you use.

Salix Alba (Willow) Extract is likely to contain a high quantity of polyphenols, tannins, and salicylate derivatives all of which may be astringing (tightening) depending on which part of the plant (tree) the extract was made from.

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A little from regulatory part of the EU.

Link to the current consolidated cosmetics regulation (as of 25.dec.2017)  in the European Union can be found here containing the legal basis for cosmetics in the market but also the annexes below.

Annex II - Banned Substances
Annex III - Restricted Substances
Annex IV - Allowed Colourants
Annex V - Allowed Preservatives
Annex VI -  Allowed UV Filters

A quick resource for searching those annexes (with no legal basis, but a good guideline none the less) is COSING.

Scientific Opinions on ingredient safety by the Scientific Committee on Consumer Safety (end previous committees) can be found here.

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@gunther If the product (hydrosol) is bottled in a completely sealed container and sterilized (gamma radiation for instance) then the water could arguably have a decent shelf life (until it is opened, at which point preservatives should be added).

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@Microformulation, The LAL test system is great for spotting endotoxins in general and is more or less mandatory in pharmaceutical research, unfortunately, it may have a negative impact on the horseshoe crabs as they are gathered bleed to death (or at least so close there is little chance for recovery) and the birds that feed on their spawn.

There are alternative testing methods, but I am unsure of whether they are approved and validated.

As for a testing device, I have no idea.

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@msliz777 No they are not the same.
caprylic/capric triglyceride is a (semi)synthetic emollient consisten only of capric acid and caprylic acid esterified onto glycerol (glycerin).

fractionated coconut oil is literally that, an isolated low-meltingpoint oil fraction isolated from coconut oil. Unlike thecaprylic/capric triglyceride there are other fatty acids in the fractionated coconut oil.

I am unsure of how you got palm oil inti the question.