[prow18]

How do I obtain a clear formula? What is causing cloudiness?

[prow18]

@Graillotion

You are correct, I over-applied the term “preservative”. I understand ROE/Tocopherol will only help slow rancidity, I just wasn’t sure if Phenoxy did the same.

It’s an oil formula, no water.

Any suggestions on % for ROE/Tocopherol?

[prow18]

Thanks @Bill_Toge 

Would there be a noticeable difference between: 

K value 1% in ethanol: 24-32

K Value 1% in water: 30-38

If so, what would the difference be?

[prow18]

would Peg-40 hydrogenated castor oil be a good fit for this formulation? 

Best results so far with Ceteareth-20/ PEG-100 Glyceryl Stearate / Sorbitan Stearate 

Still separates when putting it through stress testing, and sweats on the surface after cooling. 

[prow18]

Thanks everyone, was just looking to see if there are standard levels that are suggested. It currently ages well, but if I could be using significantly less and save that was what I was looking into. 

It’s difficult to test then wait a year+ to see how the balm oxidizes. 

[prow18]

Seems to work okay, but wasn’t sure if it was too much. I wanted to make sure I’m not needlessly using material. 

[prow18]

Any takers?

[prow18]

@Abdullah

What is a “long time”? 

[prow18]

After much rework, I have been able to get about 90% of the way there. The emulsion is stable in smaller batches, but when I scale up the batch sixeit has a yellow swirl that separates. I have been using a 4 blade propellor overhead mixer, and even used an immersion blender simultaneously to ensure it was mixed, but it still separates.. 

Any feedback on why smaller batches look good but larger ones separate like this? 

[prow18]

I’ve used test batches that I reheat and modify when they don’t turn out right. This has proven to be a time saving and most cost effective option during the formulation process. This is a great way to get an idea of how the product will be if you are altering it, but it’s always best to make a fresh batch and compare. 

A couple things to consider: 
- Account for evaporation in water based formulations when reheating
- Know if any of your ingredients are heat sensitive, many ingredient will say to add them in at the end during the cooling phase. For testing purposes it may be fine to see how the emulsion turns out, but you may not want to put that batch to market. 
- Lost product in the reheating phase can change the % ratio of the amount of product you are putting in. When you scoop/pour out finished product from containers it is best to weigh the actual amount of product that is being used instead of going by the total number of units (1 jar, 1 bottle, etc). It’s almost impossible to get the entire amount out of whatever jar you poured it in. 

I’m with you for not wasting existing material!! Sometimes a solution can be to make a new product with a mix of those ingredients and others. 

[prow18]

@Pharma

To translate that excerpt to English….. Is it saying that it is a reaction from mixing of a synthetic ingredient with the honey ingredient?

Has anyone used this in a conditioner? Results?  

[prow18]

@Perry Thank you for the info! (Laughed at the supernatural claim with courts- I will show up to court in my ghostbusters uniform lol) 

I may have to switch the claim to naturally “derived” that may help some? 

What about Honeyquat as natural conditioner? I know @Pharma mentioned it, and many sites claim it is natural… or naturally derived. Does anyone know what is done to it to make the end product? 

Thanks! 

[prow18]

My main concern is what the FDA will say, they are the ones that oversee cosmetic claims. 

[prow18]

So no other cationic ingredient can be used that can be labeled as natural? 

[prow18]

@Abdullah I tried 3 variants all with the HLB balanced and none were stable. 

Trail A
PEG-40 hydrogenated castor oil: 3.69%
Steareth-2: 4.91%
Ceteareth-25: 3.26%

Trial B:  
PEG-40 hydrogenated castor oil: 2.75%
Steareth-2: 4.62%
Ceteareth-25: 3.77%

Trial C: 
PEG-40 hydrogenated castor oil: 2.72%
Steareth-2: 3.97%
Ceteareth-25: 2.99%
PEG-100 & Glyceryl Stearate: 1.12%

Anyone have any advice for stabilizing? 

Emulsifiers on hand: 
Steareth-21
Steareth-2
Oleth-10
Oleth-20
PEG-150 Distearate
Sorbitan Oleate 
Sorbitan Stearate 
Ceteareth-25
Ceteareth-20
PEG-100 & Glyceryl Stearate 
Polysorbate-20 
Polysorbate-80
PEG-7 glyceryl cocoate
PEG-40 hydrogenated castor oil 

[prow18]

Is HLB something to look at in this type of emulsion? 

[prow18]

@chemicalmatt

There is nothing new under the sun, there is always something you can learn from what other people have done. 

Citric Acid balances the PH to match for hair. 

PVP/va is 50% water

When measuring in grams, it converts to decimals in % on excel. 

What is your recommended emulsifier to oil ratio? 

These fragrances are very light, took more than normal to get the fragrance to come out. 

[prow18]

@singhc10 

Unfortunately I don’t have the equipment for a moisture analysis. 

Are you saying to use steareth-10 as a substitute for the peg-10 soy sterol? (Rather than the peg7 glyceryl cocoate used currently)

I’m seeing other brands outside crew using this same combo of ceteareth-25, Steareth-21, and peg-10 soy sterol. Unfortunately I don’t have access to the peg-10 soy sterol. 

Also: 
I see ceteareth-25, Ceteareth-20, and Polysorbate 80 used by Paul Mitchell in a parallel product. 

[prow18]

@singhc10 - yes, it’s a hair styling formula. 

I have Steareth-2 + Steareth-21 + Ceteareth-25 and have tried that combo, but it hasn’t yielded results.. 

I’m stumped because this is a generally standard list of ingredients in mainstream products. Crew Uses this blend of emulsifiers, see blow ingredients (bis-diglyceryl polacyladipate-2 used by both) 

Crew: D:Struct	Crew: Forming Cream
Water	Water
Petrolatum	Petrolatum
Cetearyl alcohol	Cetearyl Alcohol
Bis-Diglyceryl Polyacyladipate-2
Steareth-21	lanolin wax
Lanolin Wax	steareth-21
PVP	pvp
PVP/Va	ceteraeth-25
Propylene Glycol	carnauba
Carnauba	propylene glycol
Ceteareth-25	pvp/va
Mineral Oil	mineral oil
Ozokerite	ozokerite
diethylhexyl malate	diethylhexyl malate
peg-40 castor	peg-40 castor
Alcohol denat	Alcohol Denat
peg-10 soy sterol	peg-10 soy sterol
sucrose	sucrose
fragrance	parfum
Glycerin	benzyl saliclate
Preservative	Preservative

[prow18]

Shea butter

Apricot oil

Arrowroot powder

Fragrance

[prow18]

So not necessary?

[prow18]

Will increasing Poly 20 help increase Clarity?

Yes, I’m pre-mixing poly 20, isopropyl alcohol, propylene glycol, and fragrance, then adding water after.

@PhilGeis Should I add phenoxyethanol then? I was using the Alcohol as more of a solubizer